Should i be using my 02 sensors? - Page 2 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
» Main Menu

Discussion Forums
 » Twins
 » Tiger
 » General
 » RAT

Features
 » Blogs

Motorcycle.com Links

Contribute
 » Photo

Motorcycle Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games

ECM and FI Tuning - Help, Tips & Tricks We invite members from across TriumphRat.net to post your questions, or share your expertise or experiences on TuneBoy, TuneECU and PowerCommander (etc).

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-05-2012, 02:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 2006 Sprint ST ABS
 
champ87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,521
Extra Motorcycle: 1973 Yamaha RD350
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
Isn't this conflicting? I may be misunderstanding what you meant.....
.....by saying in open loop it doesn't try and achieve the A/F tables, doesn't that insinuate it DOES try in closed
No, I suggest you read my post again. In closed-loop mode the system will try to achieve a stoichiometric A/F ratio of 14.7:1 without any reference to the A/F tables.

There is no connection between the O2 sensor and the A/F tables. Using your example of 13.1 the system will deliver enough fuel to provide that A/F ratio based on the air mass values contained in the F & L tables. It does not monitor the O2 sensor to see if 13.1 is actually achieved. In fact, there's a good chance it won't be 13.1 because the airmass through your engine is unlikely to be exactly the same as the F & L tables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
So what exactly do the 02's do if they don't try and achieve the A/F tables.
In open-loop mode they do nothing. In closed-loop mode they allow the system to achieve a stoichiometric A/F ratio of 14.7:1. That may be ideal for emissions and fuel economy but it is potentially damaging to an engine under load. For that reason the system changes to open-loop as engine load increases.

Let me say again - in open-loop mode the O2 sensor(s) do nothing. They are not used to achieve your example target of 13.1 any other reading from the A/F tables. The narrow-band sensors used on our bikes are just not capable of doing that. If they were the tuner who produced your tune would not have disabled them. As it is he was not concerned with emissions or fuel economy and felt there was some improvement to be had by disabling the O2 sensor(s). Certain models respond well to disabling the O2 sensors - others do not.
__________________
Champ87
It's amazing how fast you can go when you take your time.

Last edited by champ87; 11-05-2012 at 02:21 PM.
champ87 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
Banned
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: L.A., Ca.
Posts: 9,613
Ok, i think i got that. Now my only question is what are the A/F tables for?
dazco is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2012, 05:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 2006 Sprint ST ABS
 
champ87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,521
Extra Motorcycle: 1973 Yamaha RD350
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
Ok, i think i got that. Now my only question is what are the A/F tables for?
In open-loop mode the A/F tables determine the theoretical amount of fuel to achieve the target A/F for the air mass given in the corresponding cell of the F tables. If the actual A/F does not come out on target then the bike does nothing to adjust it (unlike closed-loop mode where it constantly adjusts to achieve stoichiometric A/F ratio).

The fact that theoretical and actual A/F values probably aren't the same is not a big issue. After all, for any given engine load situation you don't know what the ideal A/F ratio is so you only need to be concerned whether it needs more or less fuel. That is probably best achieved using F-trims until you're happy with the results and ready to commit those trims.
__________________
Champ87
It's amazing how fast you can go when you take your time.
champ87 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2012, 07:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
Banned
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: L.A., Ca.
Posts: 9,613
How is the air mass determined in the table. Is this the volume of air the bike naturally pulls depending on what you have done to the airway when the tune was made? What i'm getting at here is that while this tune was made on a bike with my exact setup, i then decided to pull a restrictive part of the airway and i added 3% fuel to the cells that were previously richened over the map before it. So i'm wondering just how dangerous what i did is to the bike. The increase in power when i did this was probably the biggest gain i have ever seen just from playing with fueling and intake. But as good as it is i still fear i'm playing with fire. But no on around here will dyno the bike with tuneecu and i hate to pay $600-800 (for tuneboy or PC and dyno) just to know it's fine as is. I did it thinking that if i go rich i'm ok aside from using more fuel than needed or not getting optimal power. Then i'm told too rich is also detrimental.
dazco is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2012, 09:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 2006 Sprint ST ABS
 
champ87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,521
Extra Motorcycle: 1973 Yamaha RD350
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
How is the air mass determined in the table.
See this post where I gave my understanding of where the air mass numbers come from. For factory maps the air mass numbers are probably not too far from what the bike actually sees.

For modified maps the air mass numbers could be a mile off but it doesn't matter. If you want to add fuel you simply tell the fuel management system that it's flowing more air and it will add the corresponding amount of fuel. Whether the engine really is flowing more air is neither here nor there - you added more fuel. You could achieve the same thing by modifying the A/F but modifying the F-tables seems a better option because you can use F-trims.

I've seen your other posts about the mods to your bike and questions about rich or lean mixture. I suspect the reason you got little response is because no one has an answer. My advice would be quite simple - put the thing on a dyno and get it set up properly. You say "no on around here will dyno the bike with tuneecu". Well then the answer is to take it to someone who will. In the stickies section the Dyno Tuning Shop Index for TuneECU has two shops listed for CA. They're both north of San Francisco so were talking maybe 400 miles from LA but I rode a total of 1,200 miles to get my Sprint set up on Power-Tripp's dyno and I can tell you it was well worth the time, effort and cost. You could even enjoy the ride with a nice trip up the PCH. Your alternative is to keep guessing but never have a way to measure if you're right or wrong.
__________________
Champ87
It's amazing how fast you can go when you take your time.
champ87 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2012, 11:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
Banned
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: L.A., Ca.
Posts: 9,613
Well, w/o going into the personal reasons why, i can't. But even if i could, just the cost of gas and lodging to get there and back would cost more than a power commander which would allow me to go get it tuned 40 miles from here. I just can't afford it and was hoping there was a way i could at least tell if it's dangerously rich or lean anywhere. I can't imagine so with just a bit of restriction removed from the airway and 3% more fuel in the main powerband. But i just thought i'd ask. I will likely end up with a PC and dyno, but i've put quite a bit into it and at this point i'm drained. And like i said, it's especially hard to come up with the cash when the bike runs as well as i ever wanted it to now. It's just knowing....but an expensive way to get a simple answer.
dazco is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-06-2012, 07:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
Senior Member
Supersport 600
Main Motorcycle: TT140
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NY/LA
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
Theres nothing to tell the ECU what A/F is being accomplished, right?
There is the TPS = Sends the rate of speed of the throttle opening.
There is the GPS = Gear is a load sensor that helps calculate injector pulse feed.

A resistance happens in the throttle opening. This changes the voltage. This 0 to 5v range is sent to the ECM's micro processor.

The ECM uses the throttle opening to detect the value [input] or WOT position it is in? It takes the gear it's in to calculate load and sends in the injector pulse.

The 02 is not needed if there is another way to calc the formula [pulse]. The rpm alone is another calc if [load] type input sensors fail.
TT140 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-07-2012, 05:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: 2009 Blue & White America
 
MattyMo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: northwest Florida, USA
Posts: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
But no on around here will dyno the bike with tuneecu and i hate to pay $600-800 (for tuneboy or PC and dyno) just to know it's fine as is. I did it thinking that if i go rich i'm ok aside from using more fuel than needed or not getting optimal power. Then i'm told too rich is also detrimental.
Can you have just a dyno run done? Locally the tuners use PowerCommander only for a ~$350 dynotune but will do a couple of dyno runs (no tuning, nothing changed), just A/F and power plot for less than $100. Of course they DO want you to purchase & have them install a PC for another 300-350 dollars.
__________________
2009 America with some mods, a lot of fun that I can ride all day. (sold and miss my 2008 Bonneville, a great daily driver)
this message was created using recycled electrons
MattyMo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-11-2012, 11:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
Senior Member
Supersport 600
Main Motorcycle: TT140
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NY/LA
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post
So is the A/F table still used and if so, how?

http://www.analog.com/static/importe...als/MT-085.pdf


See if you can truck thru this muddy water? This is basic stuff. ROM (read only memory), wave forms, MHz, analog in, preset maps for the digital to lookup, analog out, etc.


Breathing inn is to (0).

Your inhale has stopped is to (1).

Same as saying, 'for every action, there is an opposite and equal' exhale is to (0).

So no matter how you read it, there is a [redundant] wave 'mapped' to send the [wave out] in an analog wave form is how to communicate to the injector's duty cycle.

Said in computer speak; 010101010101010 my 360 in MHz waves.

Said in wave forum; all I need is one square wave to keep running. I can 'lookup' a map from 0 to 360 and as long as the crank sensor (rpm speed) times that frequency puts out, "I stay running." No square wave, I turn into a boat anchor no matter if all other sensors are in working order.
TT140 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
02 sensors dazco ECM and FI Tuning - Help, Tips & Tricks 53 04-23-2013 04:15 AM
TuneECU O2 Sensors and SAI cashmore1985 Twins Technical Talk 10 02-05-2013 07:14 AM
oxygen sensors dazco ECM and FI Tuning - Help, Tips & Tricks 0 02-19-2011 01:47 PM
O2 sensors triumph900 Maintenance & Workshop Talk 4 02-22-2008 04:28 PM
EGT sensors ecrabbit96 Hinckley Classic Triples 13 01-01-2007 10:23 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:57 PM.



Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0