Just because you can...

Power-Tripp · Jul 20, 2011

As the result of a recent phone conversation, I find myself needing to point out a few things.

More than a few of us have tried to inform many on this site, as well as others, as to the meaning and reasoning of TuneECU, TuneEdit, and other stock ECU interface tuning solutions. And I am the last one to discourage others from learning and doing things on their own. We ALL start at the beginning.

But mapping is not for everyone. Some simply do not have the information and understanding of engine management. Or the tools or experience required to measure the changes. This is not rocket science, but can be confusing for some. Especially so for those with little computer skills.

If you find that you may be one of these individuals, you need to understand your limitations.

Not wanting to sound like the back end of a mule, but you may be in over your head. Myself (and others) do not want to lead you astray, or confuse you more, causing issues with your bike.

There are some things that you may want to leave to others. If you do not understand how to perform valve adjustments, you have someone do this for you. If you need a rebuild, or want full race head work done, but have never done this in the past. Perhaps, you should consider taking your bike to someone that will do this for you, and has the tools to measure the effect of the changes.

A good set of tools does not mean that you are up to a complete engine tear down and reassembly.

Mapping is the same.

Just because TuneECU is free, and the cable is inexpensive, does not always mean that everyone is up to mapping the ECU.

Reading through the TuneECU Users Guide, and through a few of the threads on this forum will give you a basic understanding. But if you find yourself confused, you may want to leave some adjustments alone. It is not the fault of the ones on this forum (or others) that post information, that you are confused. This may simply not be your cup of tea.

Please take this to heart before you attempt loading a completely incompatible map into your ECU and lock it up completely. Or make changes to a map that leave you bike in a non-running condition. Or adjust the TPS, ISCV, and throttle body balance so far out of range that the engine will not start or idle. Do not blame others, and take some responsibility for your own actions and limitations.

As my grandfather used to say, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I hope this helps, and does not discourage others from learning or using tuning solutions like TuneECU, TuneEdit, or others.

-Wayne

Tom_Hamburg · Jul 20, 2011

Hi Wayne,

Very good statement, I assume that your phone has to do with a user who has killed his ECU.

Unfortunately, this actually happened in 90% of cases through ignorance.

I, too, the users repeatedly pointed out, TuneECU or TuneEdit etc., no Game Boys are, the Tools, must understand the man.

Many of the users really believe that it is so easy to prove the killed ECU's and the destroyed engines unfortunately the opposite.

BR, Tom

DEcosse · Jul 20, 2011

Excellent advice Wayne, everyone needs to read this - and follow accordingly!

Forchetto · Jul 20, 2011

I hope this thread doesn't discourage or frighten off potential users.

Even if you can't or don't want to do any actual mapping changes, the diagnostics and test facilities are easy to use and very useful.

Everything there, from throttle body balancing to AI and O2 disabling, rpm limit and speedo correction can be done by anyone with a modicum of ability and common sense.

Part of the problem, and this isn't a criticism of the program writers, they've worked hard enough as it is and can do no more, is the meaning of all those figures that come up and how they've been arrived at. The users guide is not complete on this.

Things like the F-L tables being expressed in milligrams of air, an abstract concept really for most of us, (what do 8693 mgs of air look like?...

), the calculations that take place internally to arrive at a fueling setting by using those milligrams in conjunction with the figure in the AFR table, the meaning and use of the F-L change table, etc.

I've read every post ever written about TuneECU and am still none the wiser, perhaps I'm thick...

, but I have basically given up trying to make actual map changes myself, my use for TuneECU is now limited to the diagnostic part of it and loading maps created by others.

This hasn't always worked out well, although the last map I've tried was made by someone outside the forum who has combined several other maps and the results were good, very good in fact.

For my last and definitive mapping adventure I've entrusted this to someone who has done some development work on the dyno, Pieman of TriumphTwinPower, and this has worked out even better, with an additional 30km per tankful being achieved compared with the previous map.

DEcosse · Jul 20, 2011

Forchetto said:
I hope this thread doesn't discourage or frighten off potential users.....

I think the intent is clear Ernesto, that this is not something for people to just dive into, and is a strong caution to not get in over one's head.
Yes, the program has great diagnostics and fine for swapping OEM maps - but indeed editing maps should not be handled by those who do have that experience - or even the associated monitoring equipment - to make such changes.

No disrespect at all to PieMan - he does fine work - but even with that you have to caution that not all bikes' systems are identical (especially the injectors at lower flow rates) and maps developed on one bike are not necessarily a 'perfect fit' for another (however you can make the same argument for the OEM maps - although they have been developed to cover a broad spectrum of tolerances, rather than being peaked for one specific bike)

DeanRider · Jul 20, 2011

Sound advice Wayne. In some ways the earlier TuneECU Version Lite 1.2 was a good option.

dazco · Jul 20, 2011

I agree 100% wayne. I'm one of those you speak of, and while i use tuneecu, i don't usually do anything with it that i'm not very sure of. I have to date not modified any map myself in any way that i am unsure of, specifically i have not altered timing or fueling. Common sense goes a long ways here. I would possibly consider enrichening the fueling across the range just slightly if i felt it was lean, or just where i thought it was. But till i'm quite sure thats the case i won't mess with it. I do think tho thru my playing around with fueling on carb bikes and playing with one of those dobeck devices on my current EFI bike that richening the mix a bit isn't likely to do harm. But even then only if i'm pretty sure it needs it. Recently i asked about a map i'm using and whether it seems lean by posting it here if you recall. Forchetto was kind enough to post a jpg of it for me. I asked because i didn't want to do anything till i had someone here like yourself tell me whether that map seemed lean. In other words, i play it pretty safe. The map i use was made by Marc for another guy who's bike has the exact same setup as mine. So while maybe not perfect for my bike since they do vary, i was quite sure i could trust it. But i have yet to play with fuel or timing and probably never will until and unless i see a reason that suggests i may benefit and i get the answer i need as to whether i should or not.

SwissBrit · Jul 20, 2011

Sorry, couldn't help myself

gsdbd34 · Jul 21, 2011

Spot on PT...........
The download "To ECU" damage warning is loud and clear and I think it's good enough.

I use electronic wireless equipment software where I can switch between basic and expert settings. Basic gives diagnostic information and expert gives full access. When one switches to expert one professes to be fully conversant with the equipment. Possibly the TECU welcome screen could give an Expert or Basic option drop down. Basic of course being diagnostic only.

TECU and TB is very advanced and we are privileged to have such tools. Try tuning automotive ECU's and see what it takes. Tuner Pro is the only good free software out there and it takes months to learn just how to find and identify maps before even modifying and then sweating bullets while it uploads.

GDCobra · Jul 21, 2011

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of this post I think it would possibly be better aimed at other sections of the site after all while any mess you can make of playing with your fuelling is likely to have a financial penalty, make the same sort of mess servicing you brakes and you could pay a higher price.

I mean its a bit like how a parent frightens a kiddie to stop them doing things they don't want them to "don't go into the woods kids 'cos the bogey man will get ya".

I'm not surprised though I've long since been put off asking questions in this section as many (including one I dared to post once) seem to get an answer something like "This has been discussed here many times before, go look", I've done that and can't argue that there is plenty of discussion but few definitive answers. Bearing in mind that we only have access to the data used by the ECU not the underlying program I'd have thought you'd have to be pretty dim to terminally mess it up (and anyone that dim is not going to take notice of this advice anyhow). What would be more helpful is more information including the most obvious things to do wrong which will fry the ECU

I'd like a greater understanding of this system as I have a great deal of interest in engine management in general however I don't really want to start mapping as I don't have the tools to measure or measure the effects but I would like to understand the differences between maps which are available.

DeanRider · Jul 21, 2011

GDCobra said:
Bearing in mind that we only have access to the data used by the ECU not the underlying program I'd have thought you'd have to be pretty dim to terminally mess it up (and anyone that dim is not going to take notice of this advice anyhow).

Since the advent of the Freeware TuneECU I have seen far more tinkering and tampering of maps and settings than ever I did with the Retail TuneBoy program. With TuneBoy, maybe it was the high price of the product that deterred any old Joe buying the program and tinkering away without much clue? With TuneECU a new and troubling democratic era is beginning to emerge where many a Tom, Dick and Harry are becoming 'so-called' experts over night, changing settings willy-nilly on the barest of knowledge, believing that their 'Seat of the pants' dyno is the true arbiter of their new found ability to produce the perfect map. On other Triumph Forums in particular I have clearly experienced this, whereby some individuals have even set themselves up as 'experts' and to some extent have even gained guru status with many would-be followers. At least on this Forum and the British-based TriumphTorque we have the valuable, informed and measured expert opinions of a number of true professionals in this field that we can rely upon to keep us on the straight and narrow and hopefully out of trouble!

gsdbd34 · Jul 22, 2011

ECU terminal damage is more likely to occur when people strip and add jumpers to the OBD plug trying to "power up" a dodgy cable or driver installation. Downloading an ECU matched map with corrected check sum will not damage the ECU. A corrupt map or bum check sum can lock up the ECU (Probably can be fixed with a boot load or un-soldering the eprom and re programming it. I don't know for sure but that's how we recover auto ECU's)
A tune which was inadvertently set over advanced, too lean or both could cause a catastrophic engine failure at 200kph or 80kph mid corner and is every bit a dangerous as forgetting to tighten brake caliper bolts. (It has happened and on a Triumph too)
Very little can be done to a standard tune to legally improve it. Defeating emission systems, noise limits and fitting aftermarket exhausts in a quest for more power is where TB and TECU are invaluable. Some can deal adequately with tuning such a motor but very few have the tools and needed experience to perfect a tune. We all have the ability to cock up royally too.
Anyway PT's original post is informative and encouraging to DIY tuners.

Just because you can...

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