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Daytona 1200 & Trophy 1200 Camshaft Interchange?

5K views 17 replies 6 participants last post by  fergrorke 
#1 ·
Hi all - I have a '95 Daytona 1200 that has a broken inlet camshaft. For the sake of ease of acquisition I am wondering if any of the Trophy 1200 model camshafts would work? Or even possibly using both intake/exhaust camshafts from a Trophy. I think I know the answer but thought I would get some expert advice from those of you familiar with these 2 models.

Thank you in advance.
 
#3 ·
@fergrorke - No, I have not moved on this idea. The new camshaft costs around $370 from the local dealer (used ones virtually impossible to find) and while I have owned and maintained this bike from new - still in very good condition - I am reluctant to spend that amount on it since I ride more modern bikes nowadays. My concern with Trophy cams, of course, would be the lifts/lobe profiles since the Trophy is basically a "de-tuned" version of the 1200 4-cyl motor - but for the riding I do these days I am not sure I would mind the deprecated performance - as long as it doesn't run poorly. If I could source a good used pair of Trophy cams for say $100 I think I will give it a try and see - maybe this spring I'll do that and put it all back together and I'll report back. Cheers!
 
#4 ·
I think "de-tuned" is a bit inaccurate. I know the term it's used often when comparing like engines being used for different applications but it does make one think the "de-tuned" example is somehow only a shadow of "the real thing". A 1200 Trophy is a heavier bike to begin with than a 1200 Daytona and because of it's touring mission its weight can go up even more. An engine torquey at lower revs (77ft/lb @ 5000 RPM for the Trophy) is better than a Daytona engine (85ft/lb @ 8000 RPM) for this, unless of course the Dayton's torque curve is equal to the Trophy's up to 5000 RPM at which point it keeps building. My guess is Trophy cams into a Daytona engine will result in output somewhere between the two. Depending on where and how you ride, could be all good. Trophy CR is only 10.6 while the Daytona's comes in at a whopping 12.1 to 1.
 
#5 ·
@speedyellow - have you read this thread? http://www.triumphrat.net/trophy/237456-daytona-cams-in-trophy-1200-a.html It is interesting to note that the earlier Trophys had hotter cams so they'd presumably give you something closer to the performance of the D1200 originals. I've got a vicarious interest in this because I use my D1200 in the UK for two-up touring and have wondered about putting in some Trophy cams to give it more bottom end/mid-range. I'd just like someone else to try first :)

/ferg
 
#7 ·
Hi all - @/ferg - I did previously read the link you sent - thanks. I would not mind having more umph at lower end for the riding I do nowadays which is more pottering long-distance touring than canyon racing like I did in my younger day. When I first got this bike back in '95 there were very few that could keep up with it. :smile2: I also would not mind an improvement in fuel consumption as my Day12 averages a rather poor 32mpg.

I found what appears to be a really nice set of camshafts along with the complete cyl. head (including valves and shims!) from a '98 Trophy that had about 15K miles on it (taken with a grain of salt) for $119. I think it will be interesting to compare the bits from both bikes - I tried to do parts diagram searches to compare '95 Daytona to the various Trophy years but that soon got very tedious. I did note that the Day12 camshafts have different part #'s than the Trophy but the specs in the factory manual are exactly the same for both with the exception of the valve lifts which are appreciably higher on the Day12 (Inlet: 7.1mm/9.4mm and Ex: 7.0mm/9.3mm).

Looking at the factory manual that shows the specs for ALL of the '95 Triumphs between Trophy and Daytona there are 2 "Valve Timings" given for each one with Valve Timing2 (136ps) of the Trophy being the same as Valve Timing2 (136ps) of the Daytona. (see that link ferg pasted) I am thinking that my US version came with ValveTiming1 (147ps) as standard. I am seeing the specs for the '95 Trophy whereas I have bought '98 Trophy bits so I am not sure (yet) if '98 will differ.

Interesting to note that the camshaft gear has 2 sets of mounting holes (to the camshaft) - could this be what allows for the 2 timings?

At any rate, my plan is to install the Trophy cams after taking some measurements and checking the gear/shaft alignments. I will know more once I receive the cams.

How does the Day12 achieve the higher compression ratio (12:1 to 10.6:1)? Is this down to piston dome shape and/or cyl. head combustion chamber size? Keeping in mind the Day12 has higher valve lifts and the bore x stroke is the same for both? With the Day12 high compression pistons are the Trophy cam valve lifts going to give sufficient fuel delivery and exhaust outlet? These technical questions are beyond my current knowledge. :nerd:
 
#8 ·
Way to go Speedyellow! I hope you can keep us posted on progress.

I've got no idea about two valve timing settings and two sets of cam mounting holes. Perhaps someone on the Trophy Forum could give you an answer?

Regarding the D1200's high compression however, as far as I know it is all down to pistons, which are the same as on the Super IIIs, 750 Tridents and those early 750 and 1000 Daytonas. I can't imagine there'll be any problem with "sufficient" fuel delivery and exhaust flow.

/ferg
 
#9 · (Edited)
In the late 90s I had a 98 TBS and a 99 D1200SE and wanted to hot rod them.

At the time TriumphRat was a world wide, Triumph factory supported club. In several of the News Mags the club sent out were extensive articles about Wilcox Engineering, a firm down the road, who did extensive engine testing and development for early Triumph. At the time they offered hop up kits for both those bikes. Cams being one part.

Bought kits for both bikes, think the 98 TBS is still on the road and I still have the D1200SE.

Rumor has it Triumph bought out the Wilcox rights to make Triumph stuff. But looking up Wilcox Engineering they are still in business making racing engines for cars but interestingly still mention Triumph motorcycles. May not hurt to request any info pertaining to cam specs they may still have.
As an aside, I did check with them about hot rodding my 02 955 Daytona. Their response was "We helped design the one you have".
Just a thought.
 
#11 · (Edited)
To be honest, it runs like a striped a$$ ape above 2500 RPM. But I think I did lose umph in the low end. Will not scratch rubber into second or third below 2500.

As an aside I still get 38-40 mpg.

The girl has a bad number three carb right now so she is waiting for a replacement. SWMBO loved the bike except for the fat seat and D&D pipes. Got new pipes but found a 09 Sprint ST before I got a new seat.
Also had another SE and gave it to son in law. His is stock and not as fast but will pull me in first 100 feet or so.

I have seen several Wilcox kits on eBay for different old Triumphs.
I traded my 96 Trident for the 98 TBS.
 
#12 ·
I really appreciate your guys' interest and help with this project.
@HAP - Interesting stuff - but I am going the "skinflint" route to get the old speed yellow bus up and running for right now. Its got 73+K miles on it and its been totally reliable and bullet proof in all those miles. Never left me stranded, even once - except due to operator error (running out of gas.)

I've got some old magazine articles around here of different tuners getting up towards 200mph with this engine. The fastest I've seen on the speedo was 156 - with 10% margin or error maybe about 140 or so and not nearly at max but that was fast enough for me on public roads. ;-) The sweetest thing about this engine is its torque delivery and how it is so deceivingly smooth - always feels like you are going about 10-20 miles slower than you actually are.

@/ferg thanks - yes I thought so on high comp. pistons - and I suppose those smaller lifts will improve gas mileage - its going to be interesting to note the change in performance - I am very curious now to see the results.

I received the '98 Trophy camshafts and the cyl head and I have been able to take some measurements and check the alignment of the cam gear which is aligned the same as the Daytona cam with the timing arrow in the same relative position so that is a good sign - no dinking around with that.

The intake lobes measured as follows: Trophy: 35mm, Daytona 37.35mm - which corresponds (close enough) to the lifts I wrote above: Day12 9.4mm Trophy 7.1mm. So I think I am good to go! - This weekend I will bolt them in, check the shim clearances and maybe if I make enough progress fire it up.

The cool thing is that now I also have a low mileage (allegedly) cylinder head for a spare - from my cursory inspection it looks great - came complete with valves, shims, etc.
 
#13 ·
This is beginning to sound almost easy. I hope you don't have to dick around with the carb settings. I've been exercising my curiosity muscle and have come to the conclusion that the D1200 and T1200 jetting should be the same, with 115 main jets across the board. FactoryPro sells a kit that is common to both, see http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prodtd1200.html. You don't necessarily need that although it might be an after-thought once once you've got the old bus up and running. What you should certainly pay attention to on that page, however, is the stuff about emulsion tube wear. That could well be the issue with your poor fuel consumption. I encountered it on my Trident 900 years ago. Given that you've done 73+K it would be a surprise if this were not the case although, of course, you may already have encountered the problem and sorted it.

BTW - I came across what seems to be a fairly definitive comparison of D1200 vs T1200 cams (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triumph-120...ams-Cam-Set-ingesta-de-escape-/252263656794):
"Cams are the high lift long duration Daytona cams. Valve lift 9.4mm intake, 9.3mm exhaust. Duration 262 deg. intake and exhaust. For comparison a Trophy 1200 has 7.1mm intake lift, 7.0 exhaust lift, 211 degrees intake duration and 210 degrees exhaust."
 
#15 · (Edited)
@fergrorke - I have installed the cams and adjusted the valve clearances, installed the valve cover and new spark plugs. I noticed one of the air-box to cylinder head intake rubbers was knackered so I am awaiting a new one along with new fuel lines as the old ones (22 years old!) are quite hardened and brittle. I also noticed a crack in the air box which I will need to seal up with some type of goop. She is just waiting for the air box and carbs and I will fire it up and check the carb balance and hopefully ride it.

Speaking of the carbs I am going to go with the current jetting (DynoJet Stage 1) and see how she runs. I had rejetted it years ago when I ran a pair of Micron alloy cans and K&N air filter but a few years ago went back to a pair of Triumph faux carbon fiber cans - at that time I believe I only lowered the needles a notch or two (I have to check my records) - although I may also have gone to a smaller main jet. At any rate I wont' really know until I take her out and see how she runs.

As for the emulsion tubes I need to do a bit of research to see to check/measure/whatever - but if they are not too expensive I may just replace them while I have access. One of the least pleasant jobs on this bike (as you know) is removing the carbs due to the very tight clearance between the airbox/carbs and rear down tube - so I am hoping it runs okay as is and I don't have to fiddle with the jetting. If its "close enough" I will just wait until next tune-up to do so.

Interesting side note- while I had access I removed the starter and the alternator and took them to the local Auto Battery and Electric shop for a check-up and they said they are in perfect condition - the fellow remarked that the starter looked "brand new!"

I'll keep you posted. Cheers!
 

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#17 ·
@Belco - in this case I am going vice versa - Trophy cams into Daytona.

UPDATE: Got it all buttoned up and she started up (after a thorough cleaning of the jets and needles) and she sounded great! Got it to idle nicely after a bit of fiddling and adjustment.

The next weekend I got her all set up for carb balancing. While starting I heard a "CLACK!" sound that I have heard a few times before and often wondered what it was but assumed it was the solenoid snapping back or whatnot - as it would always start up despite that sound. Hmmm...try again...CLACK CLACK! CLACK!!!!!...whirrr.....whirrrrrrr......whirrrrr. Starter not engaging just spinning.

After a bit of nosing around I finally read about the dreaded SPRAG CLUTCH issue that is somewhat common with this model and Trophys! All this after the bike sitting for the past 9 months waiting for the cams and complete tune-up....and hours of work.

I was able to restrain myself from pushing it over the hill next to my home, swore and cried for a while and then I pushed the bike to the back of the shed....covered it up... and there it will most likely sit for a long long time.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Ahhh! Commiserations but try not to be too downhearted. The sprag clutch repair is well documented and if you don't buy the special toot for grinding the engine casing from Triumph (I'm sure plenty of people on this site have got one lying around) not that expensive either. You just need the upgraded replacement part, which you may be able to get from a breaker online. In fact you don't even not the tool if you have a dermal according to this video -
 
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