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1999 Daytona 955I No fueling with throttle

9K views 30 replies 4 participants last post by  mcfeber347 
#1 ·
hey guys wanted to pick the brains of this great group of triumph folk. I just purchased a 1999 955I daytona stock ECU tune and a high mount carbon fiber exhaust and have some problems with what I think has to do with either the injectors or the ECM.
When I first start the bike it will start and Idle ok but runs rough and shuts down after 30 seconds or so of idling. It also will shut off the instant I open the throttle the tiniest bit. So to me it seems like I am not getting enough fuel. I have checked and made sure all the IACV hoses are in good condition and in the correct locations, made sure the IACV valve is moving using TuneECU. The only codes I get from TuneECU are a PO113 Inlet Air Temperature Sensor Open Circuit or Short Circut to battery and a PO105 Barometric Pressure Sensor Circut Malfunction. I am guessing I got those codes from having the air box off and disconnected with the key on. Checked and verified I had good spark on all 3 cyclinders. The Fuel pump runs with the key on. I also disconnected the return line and held the valve open on the male plastic fitting and was getting a constant flow of fuel out the return line.
What I tried next is what baffles me. I figured I would pull the injectors to see if they were clogged. They looked to be in good condition and were not dirty or plugged with crud. I re attached them to the fuel rail and hooked everything back up. When I crank the bike over with the fuel rails sitting on a towel I get a nice spray from the injectors with the throttle closed. As soon as I touch the throttle while cranking in any way the injectors stop injecting instantly. If I shut the throttle again they resume injecting. So my question is this. Why are the injectors injecting fuel at idle but not when I give it throttle? Does this have to do with the TPS sensor? Or is it a function of the ECM? When I had TuneECU hooked up to it and rotated the throttle I get a voltage of about 4.3v to 4.5v at wide open throttle and it shows about 80% on the guage on screen. I suspected that was normal and that the TPS was fine. Do I need to reset it? I might be thinking wrong but is there a function on the ECM that shuts off the injectors during cranking if the throttle is opened? should I try to reflash the ECM to a different Map? I am not sure which one to use out of TuneECU and I don't want to grab at straws changing maps. I have been chasing this thing for weeks and reading in the forums for answers but it seems like no one else had this problem before. Any help or answers to my above questions is greatly appreciated. this is my first triumph and I would love to get this thing back on the road.
 
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#2 ·
Hmmm - don't know why the injectors would turn off when you open throttle ...........
I need to think about that some more

Couple of observations
stock ECU tune and a high mount carbon fiber exhaust
You should install a TORS map

disconnected the return line and held the valve open on the male plastic fitting
Those fittings are subject to a safety recall and will be replaced free with metal (non-valved) ones from dealer.

The only codes I get from TuneECU are a PO113 Inlet Air Temperature Sensor Open Circuit or Short Circut to battery and a PO105 Barometric Pressure Sensor Circut Malfunction.
Clear the codes and ensure they do not return - if they return, most likely sensors are disconnected. These codes are typical if the ignition turned on when the airbox has been removed for servicing and although the MIL would go out after three error-free warm-up/cool-down cycles, the codes remain in memory.
You can also read the input values in TuneECU which will validate they are connected and operational

When I had TuneECU hooked up to it and rotated the throttle I get a voltage of about 4.3v to 4.5v at wide open throttle and it shows about 80% on the guage on screen
.
That is normal in Diagnostics, that indication is % of full scale volts, not relative throttle position.
Closed position is the critical one - that should be 0.6V +/- 0.05V and the TPS should be zero'd by the software.
If you want to see actual Throttle Open position go to MapEdit Fuel Table screen and operate throttle - you will see a highlighted marker on the TPS axis move with the Throttle and will go to 100%

One thing I would suggest is that you check and if necessary adjust the CPS gap - should be 1mm.
 
#3 ·
DEcosse, What is a TORS map? I am new to TuneECU. Is it one of the preloaded maps from the Triumph folder supplied with TuneECU? At first I did not want to mess around with changing maps without finding the culprit that is causing my issues just so I had the same starting point every time. But maybe that could be one of my problems. As far as the plastic fittings I do plan on going the recall route to replace them. just wanted to see if I could get it running first. As far as the codes I did clear them in TuneECU and did not get them again after I turned the ignition back on. So I assume the sensors are ok and it was like you said just a function of having them disconnected with the ignition on at the time. I will check the TPS on the Map Edit screen as well. I did not even know that function was there until I just looked at it. Also I did have the cover off and checked the CPS gap as one of the first things I did with the bike. That was my original thought when I first tried firing it up. I forgot to include that in my original post. Is there a specified resistance for the CPS sensor that I could test on the leads to make sure it is still good? Thanks again for all the help.
 
#4 ·
Update I was looking at the wiring diagrams at the back of my Haynes service manual and was looking to test to see if the Crank Position sensor is any good. Does any one know the correct resistance it should be showing? I can't seem to find it in the service manual? Also I saw mine also has a camshaft position sensor on it as well. What are the correct Resistance values for that. My service manual did not show anything other than how to remove it from the valve cover. On another note I was searching through the wiring diagrams at the back of the manual and for some reason I can not find a single wiring diagram that shows the camshaft position sensor on it? That is all through every model from 97 to 2002 which my manual covers? Did they miss that on all the wiring diagrams? I found the crankshaft sensor in all of them but none denoting the wiring for the camshaft. Any help would be appreciated.
 
#8 ·
Guys I think I must have a replacement engine in a newer frame. on the title for the bike it is labeled as a 1999 955I. But I think I have a T595 engine. The Engine number is 500EEV049429 can anyone tell me if this is in fact a T595? Also if the bike came with a different motor when new are the wiring harnesses different between the 955 and the T595 engine? Maybe that is the cause of my engine issues? For reference the frame number is SMT502FKXXJ087972. Thanks for the help so far.
 
#10 ·
49xxx is super early engine!
Your VIN number indeed suggests a true 99 model.

The T595 and 955i used different maps but have the same ECU
Here's where it gets complicated however:
What Throttle Bodies/Injectors do you have - original from 99 or came with the 97?
I'm sure you don't know the history but you can check the hardware

The 97 would have had a machined block Fuel Rail with banjo fittings on the end and had an IACV manifold that bolted to the cam chain tensioner and a hose to the airbox.





The 99 had a tubular fuel rail with bolt-on SAE type hose fittings to it; and the IACV was on the throttle body bracket and ported directly into the airbox.





(In the second pic in each case ignore all the other emissions stuff - carbon canister etc - those are just for CA models - just the IACV valve with the three hoses to the TB's idle bypass ports)

It matters because the injectors are different

The next part is the cams - those changed at engine # 61507

http://www.triumphcenteruppsala.se/index.php?action=viewparts&id=301350

You would have to believe that the cams would be per the early engine (especially since it has a cam sensor on the cover)

The problem is, there is no map that perfectly mates early cams and later fuel rail/injectors (if that's what your bike has)
You could possibly run map for older engine but change the value for the injector flow
But even that is not quite right as you have no cam sensor connection
I think you would need a custom map with
Base map of the 98 model
Actual tables from the 97 model
Flow rate from the 99 model

If you have the early fuel rail/injectors then you wouldn't change the flow rate, but still need hybrid of the 97 & 98 maps

(alternative is to fit later cams)

Now - the incorrect map may not be the cause of your primary issue - but will become important in getting it to run properly
I'm still not understanding the injectors shutting off when you open throttle - that just doesn't seem right at all, but can't attribute why it would be doing that.

BIG question - what map is in there right now? Std exhaust 99 would have map 9894
 
#11 ·
Yes it is definitely an early model close to 97 like you said on throttle body and fuel rail. It has the banjo fittings and a machine block for the fuel rail. Along with the IACV valve on the chain tensioner mount. I am sure it has the original cams in it as well. Do you know a good map to default to for this setup? Or How would I go about getting a custom map made for it? Like a hybrid 97 and 98 map? Originally when I first did a download of the map it had number 9860 in it. Which did not work well at all it would not even start. I tried going back to a stock 99 Daytona map and was able to get it to idle for a few seconds. That is where I am at currently. So you think the ECU and wiring harness are good to use with that motor?
 
#12 ·
So what you need is a 98 base map and copy/paste ALL the tables from the 97 map into it (use tables from the 97 TORS map since you have exhaust)
That should do it to give you the tables to match your engine/cams/fuel rail but in a base map that does not have a cam sensor
See how you get on with doing it yourself - if you can't figure out give me a shout
Tip - if you open the 98 map first then the 97 map in 'compare' you can flip between the two maps to copy & paste. I have a post in the ECU tuning forum with more detail on how to do that


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#13 ·
OK so pick a 98 base model map and then insert all the values in the map edit screen of the 97 model map into it. I will try that. My only concern is the cam position sensor. Will the ECM just ignore it then with the 98 Map? It is hooked up and wired into my harness. I double checked it last night. I just saw you post that says the 98 Map does not have the cam sensor in it. Should it run ok without it?
 
#14 ·
The 98 map does not use cam sensor - that is why you are using that base map.
Don't see how it can be wired into your harness? There should be no provision for that on a 99 harness (and cant see that the guy who replaced the engine also replaced the harness?)

What colour are the wires on the connector you plugged it into?

If you really have an early wiring harness too, then you would just use the 97 map.
 
#15 ·
Yes I think he used a 97 wiring harness as well. The plug connectors wires are pink/black stripe, yellow/purple stripe, and a brown/white or grey stripe? These are from the wiring harness to the connector. The ones going into the cam sensor are Brown blue and red. Does this mean I have a 97 harness as well? Does anyone have a snapshot of that wiring diagram for the 97 T595. I don't show that in my manual. In this case should I use the 97 map?
 
#16 ·
Indeed sounds like cam sensor wiring:
Pink/Black, Yellow/Purple & Brown/Pink

So yes, try the early map & see what happens - you probably would want 9860.
Although looking back I see you said that was what was in there (should have been correct one) but it would not start.
The injectors are a different flow rate in the 99 map however so that one should definitely be wrong.

I think you need to go back to the 9860 and start again to see why it will not start.
Probably need to revisit the injectors shutting off with the throttle opened - don't know what could/would cause that ........
(If you keep cranking and let the throttle relax again, do they restart to spray?)

Do you know ANYTHING about the history of this bike?
It seems really odd to have a 99 frame and engine, wiring harness and map from an early bike ......
Was it titled, come with papers?
 
#17 ·
That seems to be the same as my T595('98). The cam sensor wiring is Brown, Blue and Red. The harness side is Brown/Pink that goes to pin #1 on the ECU, Yellow/Purple that goes to pin #18 on the ECU and lastly, Pink/Black that goes to pin #34 on the ECU. I should note that many of the senors share the same wiring that goes to pin #'s 1 and 34. Pin #18 is unique to the cam sensor.
 
#18 ·
Decosse the only history I had was from the guy I bought it from. After talking to him the other day he said the original owner was screwing around one day and decided to wheelie the bike. When he came down it cracked the frame at the front motor mounts and the shattered the oil pan destroying most of the lower side of the engine. Apparently he took it to a dealer who he says under warranty at the time would replace the frame with an identical VIN number. The title is clean and clear I had it checked by two independent title reviews before I bought the bike. When he got the frame he said he bought a used engine of the same year. That is where the differences come in. The original owner must have purchased a used 97 T595 maybe for costs Vs a new engine? The previous owner that I bought it from did not know much about the engine characteristics of the bike. So at the time with it being my first Triumph I did not realize it was a T595 (now I know). He did not really want to mess around with the fuel injection side of it so he sold it to me who loves a good adventure!
So on the other side of things with the injectors. What would happen is I would crank the engine at closed throttle and you could visibly see the injectors firing a fuel spray. The instant I would give it throttle they would shut off and stop spraying. When I would let off the throttle back to Idle they would begin spraying again. That was what was puzzling me. Almost like the ECM was telling the injectors not to fire when the throttle was open. The fuel pump was running all the time and did not shut off. When I crack the lines at the banjo fittings I get a pretty heavy squirt of fuel when the pump is on so I was not suspecting the pump to be bad. I think the bike would start and run fine If I could just get the injectors to fire when the throttle was open.
 
#19 ·
.... I think the bike would start and run fine If I could just get the injectors to fire when the throttle was open.
But it won't fire if you leave the throttle alone? (should never open the throttle on an EFI bike anyway when starting - the program has its own cold-start enhancements) I know my T509 would not take any throttle when starting or just after started.

from the manual
Leaving the throttle completely
closed, push the starter button until
the engine starts.
NOTE:
In very cold conditions, part open
the throttle to aid starting. Return
throttle to the closed position once
the engine has started.
The latter part suggests that there should be nothing prohibitive about opening throttle slightly - just not optimum for normal cold starting

The behavior I would think cannot be normal regardless but does not explain why shouldn't start with closed throttle (since appears to be spraying like that) - be interesting to see what happens if you leave throttle closed, get it started & let it run a bit, then open the throttle and see if dies.

You didn't come back with the TPS CLOSED voltage (can read that off the TuneECU Diag screen), just the WOT reading - what is that closed-position voltage?
As you slowly open the throttle, observing the TPS voltage (and indicator dial) does it track smoothly with position across the full range without any jumps or drop-outs?
What happens to the injector Pulse values while is cranking and you open the throttle?
 
#21 ·
Yes the bike will fire for a brief time with the throttle closed. it starts up for about 15 to 20 seconds idles then dies. I was not cranking it with the throttle open. I just wanted to see if when I started it and it was idling regardless I should be able to crack the throttle a little and see a response from the engine with higher RPM's correct? All the carburated bikes I have worked on over the years still respond when cold to a slight blip in the throttle when first started. With this one even when it is Idling with the throttle bodies closed and you just slightly open the throttle it will die instantly. That is why I removed the fuel rail/injectors and tested them on a towel while cranking the engine over to see the spray. What puzzled me was when cranking at idle the injectors would spray. when I opened the throttle a little while cranking they would shut off. This was all while the injectors where out of the bike but still with everything connected. Does the fuel pressure have anything to do with the output of the TPS sensor or ECM? Or is it just a constant pressure? I thought there might be a pressure drop in the line that coincided with the throttle opening.
I will have to check the TPS voltage closed again. I was getting .55v to .6v without touching the throttle. Weird thing is the gauge on TuneECU is jerky when you roll the throttle back and forth. Same thing on the Edit Map page for throttle %. It will skip blocks on the 0 to 100%. I just thought that was the software and the cable having to play catchup due to the connection. Could it be a bad TPS sensor? As far as the plastics on the bike they are replacements from Lizard Skins that are 1 piece rear tail sections and were repainted so they do not have any of the original graphics on them.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Connected a volt meter to the green yellow wire on the TPS. At throttle closed I am getting a constant 0.66 volts. When I roll on the throttle easy it seems to climb smooth. It maxes out at 4.04 volt at wide open throttle. The readings only jump around if you open the throttle fast which I would expect. Do these voltages seem normal for a good working TPS sensor? I am also going to try to get a pressure on the fuel line while the bike is running. Could it be there is enough pressure there to run the bike at idle but not when more fuel is needed for higher RPM's? When the injectors spray at idle when I had them out it was not a fine mist. It was more of a direct stream of fuel. Are they supposed to be fogging a fine mist or is a more direct spray ok? Maybe I have a weak fuel pump not putting out enough pressure? I did check and make sure the hose did not blow off inside the tank. Someone must have had it out before because there is a hose clamp on the line not the standard clip. on another note the injector pulse is anywhere from 3.522 to 4.025 they vary when cranking. Does this seem normal? ignition coils vary from 2.706 to 2.801. Also the barometric sensor says it is at 999 Hpa that seems maxed out to me when sitting still does that have anything to do with my problems? thanks for all the help guys any other ideas would be welcome.
 
#24 ·
The TPS voltage are about right - closed is marginally out of spec but that would not cause issue you are seeing. center point of spec is 0.6V and should be +/- 0.05V

1000 hPa is 1 bar (atm pressure) - so that is exactly what it should read.

Fuel Pressure would certainly be good thing to check next

Think about what is happening when you open the throttle:
The TPS voltage increases and that selects a different fuel mass demand from the table (higher value). In order to inject more fuel it opens the injector for a longer duration.

As you open the throttle and it stops injector flow - how does this happen - as soon as you move it even slightly off closed, or is it repeatably at some other opening? And how does the spray change as you open the throttle (to the point where it cuts off)
What do the injector pulse durations do as you open the throttle - do the numbers increase or go to zero when the actual injectors stop spraying?
That last bit should be guide as to whether the ECU is telling them to stop spraying, or whether either the pressure or injectors themselves are not responding to the ECU output drive
 
#25 ·
when the injectors are out on a towel The spray starts at idle. they shut off right away when you start to crack the throttle. They are dead all the way through the full range of the throttle until you close it again then they spray. The spray pattern goes from a squirting pattern and then just dies off right away to not even a drip coming from the injectors. When I look at the injector pulse on the Tune ECU they do rise when the throttle is turned. They start at about 3.0 and get to about 4.6 to 5.0 before the bike shuts off. So I am assuming they are getting signal correctly? I also put an pressure gauge inline on the pressure side of the pump which is the bottom fitting on the fuel tank correct? just want to make sure I am not reading from the wrong side of the fittings. When I cycle the ignition on I am getting maximum 27PSI on the gauge. after I start the bike it goes down to about 24PSI sustained for the 30 seconds or so that the bike will actually idle. Then the bike shuts off. So in an earlier post I saw that 3 bar is Ideal which equates to about 40PSI correct? so could I have a bad fuel pump and 27PSI is not enough to spray out of the injectors other than at Idle? If it is as easy as changing out the fuel pump that would be great.
 
#26 ·
I also put an pressure gauge inline on the pressure side of the pump which is the bottom fitting on the fuel tank correct? just want to make sure I am not reading from the wrong side of the fittings. When I cycle the ignition on I am getting maximum 27PSI on the gauge.
Doesn't make much difference whether in feed or return - the FPR is actually after the return anyway

When you say "in-line" you mean TEE'd right?

Yes way low should have ~ 45psi

Could be pump or regulator

Have you looked in the filler neck, to see if there is any sign of gas swirling around when pump is running? (which might indicate a feed hose split)

There have also been issues with replacement fuel fittings being installed, where they have been screwed in too far, not allowing the valve to open properly


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#27 · (Edited)
Ok guys here's an update. I ended up taking the entire fuel pump assembly out of the tank just to make sure. There was a pinched line from the pump that it looks like someone installed wrong before and ended up screwing up the hose connection. So I put all new lines on and clamps put everything back together. Now I consistently have 40psi on the gauge I Teed into the pressure feed line when running. I can now get the bike to start up and idle for more than 30 seconds. Thats a win right there. So at least I am getting somewhere and have solved one of my problems. Sadly though it did not cure the injectors shutting off when the throttle is cracked. Now the bike will idle for as long as I want but the second I put any throttle to it the bike shuts off. I pulled the injectors again to check the fuel flow and i get nice clean spurts of fuel when the throttle is closed. More than I had before but I put that to faulty fuel hose not providing enough pressure. But now I have the 40psi and get a good spray at idle. I am now thinking it has to be some sort of electrical issue. It seems like whatever tells the injectors to fire when the throttle is opened shuts down. Does the ECM send a signal through to the injector to fire? There are two wires on each injector. I would like to measure the voltage being delivered to them while cranking but which wire to I measure? I am thinking the voltage has to vary as you open the throttle correct? Whatever is causing it to happen is very drastic. At closed throttle you get nice clean spurts of fuel out of the injector holes. When you start to open the throttle it abruptly shuts off. Not even a gradual slow down of fuel spray just an abrupt shut off from every injector. On another note I pulled the ECM out of the bike to make sure I was not getting a faulty connection. There were some numbers on the back including a different VIN number sticker. Could it be that I have the wrong ECM for a T595 or does it not matter as long as you reload a new Map into it. The Vin number on the ECM is SMT502FKXVVJ062147. There is also a number under the MC2000 code that reads 21626330-3C and 7280 010399. Could that be anything? I am not sure what to check next?
 
#28 ·
Voltage does not vary in magnitude:
There is a constant +12V and the other wire from ECU will pulse low - it is not the size of the voltage drop, the injector is either closed or open and it is the duration if the low pulse that determines how much fuel is delivered

Do you have a ground block on your harness (do search on here)?
Some early bikes did not have ground blocks according to some although can't speak personally to that
But on those that have ground blocks, this is particularly troublesome and can cause electrical problems if it's burned


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#29 ·
I did not see a ground block anywhere on the harness. I am going to check again tonight to see if I can locate one. The grounds that I saw were all bundled and connected to a crimp on ring terminal. There is one that connects to the negative battery post, another that is grounded to the rear engine case bolt near the rear shock and another close to one of the alternator mounting studs. That was my original reaction that maybe I was missing a ground wire somewhere in the harness only thing it does not explain is why they fire at idle but shut off after the throttle was opened. almost seamed like the ECM was reacting to the TPS sensor and doing the opposite of what it is supposed to shutting them off rather than opening them for a longer duration.
 
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