I've repeated some of this basic information too many times to remember. THIS time, I thought I'd expound on it and maybe CLARIFY the reason for it...
Emulsification in your oil indicates a buildup of condensation, ESPECIALLY bad on shared-cavity later bikes (if there's emulsified oil in the primary, it's also in the engine and main frame cavities).
You MUST run the bike to full operating temperature, then a minimum of 30 minutes at that temperature, to ensure you've burned off ONE "sit time" worth of condensation! If it's been sitting, then only started, then sits, the maybe run around the block, then sits, it's actually BUILDING UP MORE condensation, NOT burning it off!
Simply starting the engine every few weeks is possibly one of the WORST things to do!
A quick "heat" cycle (not to full operating temperature) will cause a condensation cycle to occur as it cools back off.
Even starting the bike and riding around the neighborhood to "keep it from getting stale" isn't enough. Condensation will not start to vaporize until it reaches 212F, then must be sustained at that temperature long enough for ALL of the condensate to boil off.
...and IF you are burning off lots of condensate, you're ALSO running that condensate through your bearings and all other wear surfaces!
Better to dump the winter oil, flush the system, and start fresh.
I think you can safely say that applies to all engines ancient and modern, however modern oil formulations are designed to keep acidic compounds from the combustion process in suspension, which is another good reason for running a modern formulation oil or fully synthetic oil..if you can find it in the correct grade.
Any place where the crankcase will be exposed to rapid changes in ambient air temperature will cause condensation to collect inside it. It is worse where the ambient air temperature is low and the humidity is high. None is any worse than the other - the end result is the same.
Condensation will collect inside the engine in many situations:
•The bike is stored adjacent to a window in an unheated garage where the sun shines on the bike during the day.
• The bike is stored in a heated garage where the garage door is opened a couple times a day.
• The bike is stored in a cold cellar near a working furnace.
The bike should be stored in a place where there is no rapid changes in temperature. Doesn't matter what temperature. Just a location where the temperature remains constant.
Oil doesn't protect steel from rusting. To that end additives must be added to protect the engine parts from rust. Like most oil additives their ability to do their job are finite. Changing the oil before storage removes any resident condensation that is in the system and refreshes the oil system's ability to protect the engine from condensation.
One of the problems with some break-in oils is they do not contain any anti-rust additives. The thought is the engine will be put into service and the break-in oil will be flushed in a few miles. If you are building an engine in the fall to be put into service in the spring it is wise to build it using conventional oil. If you want to break in the engine with break-in oil to put it in in the spring when you are about to start the engine. Also a lot of people who don't routinely use assembly lube will use it if they know the engine will not be put into service for a period of time.
John
PS an after thought. An attached heated garage is probably provide one of the worst environments to store an engine. The normal humidity built up in a house from showers and cooking can raise the humidity level in the garage to a level insuring condensation will collect in an engine. Unless you have a vapor barrier in the walls between the two structures humidity will pass right through the walls.
I get no condensation that i can see,maybe my climate is good.I have a garage which is unheated but fully insulated so that temperature change inside is very slow.Nothing in the garage goes rusty when left so the air must be fairly dry.I do live next to salt water though and metal outside the garage like car disc brakes will turn orange overnight.
Hi, GrandPaul & Johntioc are 100% correct. Even 1/2 hour will not be long enough to burn out all the condensation unless it's 110f+ out & even then just barely.
The oil in our bikes often will not approach 212F. In fact on a 110f day I can reach down & put a finger on the metal oil feed pipe. It feels hot, but you can hold a finger on it. Return pipe is hot, but not 212. Top of frame reservoir is hottest part of frame, but not near 212. City riding with many stop lights motor is hottest. Still the oil is not that hot. The only part that might be 212 is the head near the exhaust valves. Not much oil actually running down the push rod tube.
I've had many primary covers off OIF bikes. I've done many oil changes on OIF bikes. If oil is changed hot you often will not see condensation, but let it cool & the water will separate from oil & usually been seen as whitish deposits that are quite soft to the touch. Within 20 min. of riding this moisture is reabsorbed by the oil so it may appear to be burned off, but actually hasn't yet.
Recently I did a 150mi. ride with only fuel & restroom breaks. Was cool 40-55f & moist air. Had some periods of rain while riding. But bike was parked after only 1/2 mile in town. Rest was 60-65mph freeway miles. Bike sat a few days. Then I did an oil change cold, which I never do, but wanted to modify Motao sump plate for center stand clearance so I did work cold.
I think about these things... 1000 miles since last change. I do mostly 50-200 mile rides since retiring. That was the case here. I was simply shocked at the condensed water sludge at bottom of frame. I'd figured the 150 miles would have burned it out, but no.
I've seen this many times. I know a short ride would mix it back in though.
This is why I like to change frame, primary & eng. sump oil & clean screens every time. This time I could see a tiny bit of condensation at eng. screen also. I don't think the Motao filter protects from condensation at all. So having good filters is not a cure.
Even new cars have condensation, but all have Positive Crank case Ventilation system & with modern oil very seldom do we see damage. PCV substantially reduces condensation by continually exchange the air in crank case. Still on cold motor you see some condensation especially on the underside of oil filler cap. Car oil runs much hotter than our bikes so we have it double bad.
Back to our bikes, I question the logic of extending oil changes with modern oil or with oil filters. I feel damage can result. For sure my Motao didn't help with condensation whatsoever. I've not seen studies on old motorcycle oils & wear so I have no actual facts. Just hunches & observations.
The Bonnie on my bench right now had noisy trans bearing. Turns out bearing was not worn per se, but rusted on the ball races. Was in storage several years. Visible rust & pits made noise. Crank main bearings can do this too.
Assembly lube can be a problem after prolonged storage as well. A few years ago observed a motor that had been fully rebuilt. Sat about 7 years before install... Was a car motor. Upon starting soon spun some rod bearings. Turned out the assembly lube had hardened such it blocked oil flow to bearings. Was black moly lube type, don't know brand.
Not a problem on cam lobes to use assembly lube, but I've been just using oil elsewhere. Also before start up I pump a lot of oil into oil pressure switch port to fill crank with fresh oil & sends oil to exhaust tappets too on those motors. I've not done pre unit motors. Also pump oil into rocker feed pipe to prime rocker shafts. I even do this on recent built engines. Has always worked well.
Don
Yes,i fitted a cooler and am measuring oil temp at 54C after a hard ride at 80 mph so it was a bad idea.My oil in the frame is luke warm when i park up.Despite this,i get no condensation and the oil still does a good job with very little engine wear taking place.
I noticed that our Plewsy fitted a cooler and i did suggest to him it was not needed.He did say his oil in the frame was extremely hot which is strange given his engine is running in the same climate as mine.
I suppose that the oil temperature rises to a bit more than 54C as it goes through the pump and soaks up a little heat from the engine.
When cold weather,i need to keep engine speed low for about 4 miles as a few years ago,the crank end oil seal inverted itself possibly due to the thick cold oil.It has not done this again since keeping to the low speed 4 miles idea.This was using a mineral 20/50 but with the STP additive which considerably thickens up cold oil.
I've had a bad sneaking feeling about the bottom end of my '65 Bonnie that I overhauled over 10 years ago, I wrapped it up nicely in a sheet and then plastic, and it's been sitting.
Back then I used Lubriplate assembly lube, but never did such a thing (assemble, wrap, and let sit).
I'm not feeling good about it, and I know I'm not going to finish building it in the next year or two.
The OIF bikes have a slightly smaller oil capacity than the separate tank ones. Makes sense they might run a little hotter. Fitting a oil filter in the return line adds some capacity and is about the best thing you can do for the engine.
Most cars are designed and manufactured so that the oil reaches 100c during normal running, in order to burn off any condensation/water vapor, most bike engines should reach a similar temp during normal running,
having external oil tanks may prolong the warm up process though,
This is one reason i am not running an oil cooler on the T160, but i have not yet done any longer runs so it may come to a point when temps will get high enough, but it will be a few weeks until i get the engine back together to find out.
I tried that one year... got a bit dodgy starting my Trident when the temps dipped into the teens, and the snow got over a couple of feet. Still have my "Hippo Hands" in the closet. I guess I don't measure up to 40 miles, with a mere 12 mile run to the shop.
I got a picture of that bike taken on the annual winter Polar Bear Run in February 1970. A 50 mile jaunt on a brisk winter day. I was with Nick and Cora Greer. Nick on his 500 Daytona and Cora on her Cub. It was to Randy's bike shop just outside of Worcester, Ma.
John
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
3.9M posts
167.7K members
Since 2002
A forum community dedicated to Triumph Motorcycle owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, racing, cafe racers, bobbers, riding, modifications, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!