T160 Oil pressure...Pump! - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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T160 Oil pressure...Pump!

Just looking for some input/opinions on this problem, initially on first start up the cold oil pressure was low 30-40psi, and when hot it drops to near zero, so i pulled the pressure relife valve and shimmed it, which did increase pressure to 40psi on cold start, but still drops to near zero when hot.

But also i did notice a bit of smoke which say to me that scavenging is also bad, so i am leaning more toward the pump being suspect.

Now i know this is not good, however i am thinking of buying a new pump and see if things improve significantly, i guess if not its going to be new rod and center bearings.

So far other than checking pump case and shaft clearance there is not a lot that can be done for the existing pump, or does surface grinding the case ends improve things? i am guessing that like car rotary pumps there is little that can be done bar renewing the unit.
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 05:26 PM
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I 'd take this engine apart in a moment having such a low pressure, but I'm pessimist in Trident department.
At what revs do you have this 0 pressure ?
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 07:25 PM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
i am leaning more toward the pump being suspect.
It's very, very rare for a triple oil pump to be the cause of low pressure; not impossible but very, very rare.

Otoh, it's much more common for knackered centre mains and/or big-ends to be the cause of low pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
thinking of buying a new pump
Depends who you're thinking of buying from. If you must buy, do it from a proper triple specialist - L.P. Williams, Norman Hyde, P&M, Nova Classics, Richard Darby (3D Motorcycles).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
guessing that like car rotary pumps there is little that can be done bar renewing the unit.
You would be guessing wrong. If you want someone to refurbish the existing pump, Richard Darby, P&M or Nova. There is also a long-time triple owner and stainless parts maker in Lowestoft - Clive Scarfe, he might be able to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
does surface grinding the case ends improve things?
If you don't know, don't bugger around with it; there are enough people who do know and can fix almost anything.

But before you pull the pump:-

. Where on the engine have you connected the pressure gauge?

. Have you tried another gauge? Another cause of low pressure are knackered gauges ...

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Pressure gauge is connected in place of the original oil light switch so should read correctly, and gauge was working fine previously, or i wouldn't be asking these questions, i can think of no reason the reading should change when hot other than oil viscosity and pump and bearing clearances, but i will try and borrow another gauge to double check.

Yes it would seem that the rod and mains are the most likely cause, however if you noticed my point about smoke on hot idle, this to me indicates the pump is having trouble scavenging, it doesn't do this when cold as you might expect from an over filed sump due to the ball valve being weak.

The only reason i don't know, is because this is the first trident i have ever owned, and haven't found any info so far on refurbishing the pump, just the manuals tolerance figures, but i am quite capable of doing so, however it will depend on just how much and what type of machining is needed as to whether its a similar price to just replace or repair.

Perhaps since you seem to know all about it, you can tell me exactly what needs to be done to referb the pump?
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 03:52 AM
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The smoke does not mean the crank bearings are good.

It more likely means the rings, bores and/or pistons are bad as well.
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
Pressure gauge is connected in place of the original oil light switch
That's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
this is the first trident i have ever owned,
So why are you persistently rude and argumentative when you ask a question and someone with forty years' experience of triples answers your question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
gauge was working fine previously, or i wouldn't be asking these questions,
If you realise that a mechanical collection of different parts like a triple engine can go from working correctly on one occasion to not working on another occasion, why would you think a mechanical collection of different parts like a pressure gauge can't also work correctly on one occasion and not work on another?

My advice to try another gauge is based on first-hand experience of incorrect readings from a failing pressure gauge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
if you noticed my point about smoke on hot idle,
I did but, because this isn't "the first trident i have ever owned" or come across with the symptom, from first-hand experience, that is far more likely to be a symptom of wear or other mechanical problems in the bores or valves/guides.

Nevertheless, again, because it isn't impossible that the pump has a problem, rather than navel-gaze about it online, it's a few minutes work to remove the sump plate, catch the oil that drains out and measure it; a large quantity will merit further investigation, a small quantity will rule out that part of the pump.

Again from first-hand experience:-

. Have you or the p.o. fitted the sump plate the wrong way 'round, the unfinned part under the scavenge pipe? I have first-hand experience of many new triple owners doing that, then wondering why the oil pump can't scavenge the crankcase very well ...

. Are all the oil hoses at least reinforced rubber? I have first-hand experience of a dpo replacing original reinforced hoses with unreinforced rubber, which collapsed at a bend when hot and restricted the oil flow out of the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
since you seem to know all about it, you can tell me exactly what needs to be done to referb the pump?
Since you put it like that ... why would I bother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
i am quite capable of
refurbishing the pump
You might be capable but:-

. you haven't even undertaken simple checks that could rule out the pump;

. you "haven't found any info so far on refurbishing the pump".

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
If you want someone to refurbish the existing pump, Richard Darby, P&M or Nova.
I only have three triples, none of which have needed "refurbish[ing] the existing pump". Until I told you, you didn't even know you could refurbish the pump. That is why I suggested you take/send it to someone with extensive experience of the specific problems of triple oil pumps. If one does find (a) problem(s) with your triple's pump and you're even a little more polite, they'll likely even tell you the fix(es).
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 05:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quite frankly i find you very rude and overbearing in all your reply's, you treat people like they are fools and know nothing, i think you get off on being this way,

You may have knowledge on the subject, but because somebody doesn't take every scarp of your information to heart,, you get pushy and condescending, i stopped using the brit bike forum because of your attitude, and it looks like i will be doing the same here!

I have had over fifty years mechanical experience on both bikes and cars, but i unlike you am always ready to learn!

If i say i am pretty certain the gauge is OK you can take it for gospel, but like i said i will source another just to check!

The sump plate has been off recently, and i am not stupid!
I have also fitted re enforced hose as again i am not stupid!

Anyway i am not sticking around to be insulted and let some would be internet warrior try and bolster their ego by making other seem small and fools, i strongly suspect you would be the sort of person that if i met you in the pub and you spoke to me in this manner i would want to punch you in the mouth!!

Its people like you that spoil forums fo people who don't think they know everything!

Thanks to all others who have been helpful and pleasant.

Last edited by Tricky-Dicky; 04-16-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 07:59 AM
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It seriously looks like you would explode your engine at speed, if left to your own devices.

That's what happens when Trident owners wishfully convince themselves that their low oil pressure is caused by things that are cheap to fix.

From here it looks like someone has sold you their troubles, in the form of a worn-out Triple.

But you're spot-on about one thing: you and Stuart have definitely got to meet up in a pub and punch it out like real men!
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Your right in that i am kind of hoping that its an easy fix, IE oil pump rather than stripping the whole engine, and the scavenging bit has thrown me somewhat as regards the option of pump or bearings, i was thinking of just replacing the pump just to see if it made any appreciable difference.

However i doubt its the cheaper option, as the pump is over £200, and bearings and a grind would be less...just a lot more work, and i am frankly worried about what else i may find once i dismantle the engine.

But i guess its going to be a strip down, i do have a fair amount of mechanical sympathy, and have only ever had one seizure and one burnt valve, both from unopened motors, and i know how to read the symptoms, i just prefer to throw around some ideas for discussion, it can make things more interesting...until you get the know all's with a penchant for ridicule jumping in.

And on the Stuart front, while i have no doubts that he is knowledgeable, its his method of delivery and attitude that gets up my nose, i dislike overblown self important people intensely, unfortunately it seems that there is one on nearly every forum these days.

Anyway hopefully I'll find another with a more friendly membership.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 09:08 AM
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Stuart's on all the forums!

Triplesonline is a good Trident forum and at least you'll get other expertise as well as Stuart's.

It takes an odd sort of cove to memorise wire colours and part numbers of 45-year old bikes, you know.
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