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Electronic Ignition

9K views 37 replies 11 participants last post by  GrandPaulZ 
#1 ·
I am looking at replacing the points on my '72 Daytona with an electronic ignition. I know there are several out there, Pazon, Boyer, etc.
What does everybody like the best?
 
#3 ·
My Boyer lasted about 14 years so i bought another 5 years ago.Good unit and easy install but some say a Pazon might be better.
The Boyer has always been a great starter as long as you keep a battery well charged.It might not start if the voltage is too low but mine does start when it has enough energy to at least light up the warning lamp.
 
#4 ·
I used the cheaper analogue Pazon "Sure-Fire" when I rebuilt my T90. It was easily fitted and if set up as instructed (at TDC) the timing was spot on when strobed at 3000 rpm. I installed a new pair of 6v coils at the same time. I've only covered around 1000 miles but it has been trouble free so far.

On my T120R, I installed the digital, optical "C5" system from America. That was a little more tricky to install due to the size of the twin spark coil that came with the kit. That, too, is set up at TDC and also proved to be correct at higher revs.
However.... After working perfectly for a couple of years, the bike has just developed a problem that may be ignition related. It starts and runs perfectly for a couple of miles and then the engine cuts dead... no messing about or misfiring, it just stops. Leave it for a while and it starts up again, only to fail a few more miles down the road. It's currently under investigation.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Hi Fred,

What does everybody like the best?
I've used Lucas Rita since 1978 ... :D But you have to search eBay for the bits ...

I was never a fan of the common old Boyer-Bransden e.i. (analogue Mark 3, MicroDigital or MicroPower) - fixed too many other people's at roadsides, campsites, etc. :( But my T100 does have a Mark 3, because it came at the right price - free ... :thumb And I built the bike's electrics. And I know that, were the electrics ever to drop below 12V and the e.i. stopped working, it isn't surprising, because 12V DC electrics are 12V DC electrics, not magic ju-ju ... :Darn

That said, since B-B replaced the analogue Mk.3 with the Mk.4, which'll still work 'normally' at the same sort of sub-12V as things like the Pazon, Tri-Spark, etc., the perennial common Britbike forums thread title stopped being "My Boyer doesn't work ...".

Another advantage of B-B in the US is, if it ever did go t1ts-up, you only have to send it as far as Boston (to Coventry Spares) for testing or warranty work. :thumb

Hth.

Regards,
 
#6 ·
I used to give Boyer the benefit of the doubt as to the high failure rate, being they were the ONLY electronic ignition available for many years and thus, there were a high number of them out there. That said, I don't recommend them for the same reason as Stuart, replaced too many failed ones.

Now, as many Sparx as I've sold and installed, and as low failure rate I've had First-hand, I'm starting to wonder what's up after hearing more and more failure stories.

I've heard very few failure stores re: Pazon, but then have heard relatively few installation reports of them as well.

So, you pays your money, and you takes your chances...
 
#11 ·
Yes a 7 year warranty....But consider the down time if the unit has to be shipped from the USA Or Europe to NZ and back....I know, because I had a bad Pazon Smartfire out of the box. In addition, Pazon was closed for a month long holiday..It was my race bike and I would have missed the race...But thanks to a certain guy here who is a Pazon distributor and had the needed part...it was not a disaster...
 
#20 ·
The Sparx setting at BTDC is just a datum, you have to start somewhere.
It will trigger the spark much later, closer to TDC.
If they had a choice they would probably have picked TDC, but then the rotor wound be under the coils.



As the engine revs increase the amplifier circuitry advances the timing according to their graph.
Dynamically, it looks as if the advance begins around 500rpm.

 
#24 ·
Hi,

The Sparx setting at BTDC is just a datum, you have to start somewhere.
It will trigger the spark much later, closer to TDC.
Really? You have made marks on the alternator rotor pointed a strobe at them and seen this? If so, you had a totally different "Sparx" (or Rita, or Boyer-Bransden) from the ones I've dealt with ...

As the engine revs increase the amplifier circuitry advances the timing according to their graph.
Dynamically, it looks as if the advance begins around 500rpm.

Nope, you're trying to claim a meaning that isn't there.

That is a line on a computer rendered image. Whether it was first drawn like that or on a piece of paper and scanned, the line is drawn between points coinciding "RPM" on the x axis and "Degree's (sic) Advance" on the y axis. Whether that line was created from a human taking a few coincident readings and joining the dots or a machine taking many readings and joining the dots is irrelevant, all it indicates is the number of degrees BTDC ("in Advance of" TDC) the spark is at given rpm.

"Advance" there is not a verb indicating the electronics advance (as opposed to 'retard') the spark timing from a physical setting.

Pending a chance to try Paul's advice on a Sparx - that swapping the connections between the 'trigger' and the 'box' causes the 'box' to 'advance' (or 'retard') the spark electronically with changes in rpm - I know this is not true on either a Rita or a Boyer-Bransden.

On a B-B, swapping the connections retards the spark to some large number of degrees ATDC ... unless that's what's happening with standard connections - which normally manifests as non-existent starting, spitting back and other bad behaviour - when "swapping the connections" miraculously restores normal working ... :bluduh

On a Rita, swapping the connections specifically isolates the electronic retarding, the spark occurs at exactly the number of degrees set physically; the idea was Rita could be used with a specific mechanical advance/retard if the desired curve wasn't available electronically.

Regards,
 
#25 ·
Some electronic ignitions are complicated nowadays and I couldn't even understand the simple ones.

But- there's something counter-intuitive about a true electronic "advance," as opposed to decreasing retard.

Spark is triggered by something passing something else, so how can it spark before the trigger goes past the coil?
 
#26 ·
Hi,

Spark is triggered by something passing something else, so how can it spark before the trigger goes past the coil?
Ye-ea-ah ... but also don't forget that, as something magnetised gets closer to something else metal (whether the magnet itself is moving or fixed), there's an increase in electron movement? As John Carpenter once explained (probably very simplified ...) to me, electronics can not only measure the increase but also the speed of the increase, higher speed indicating (in this case) higher rpm, therefore requiring 'more advance' (actually less electronic retard).

Hth.

Regards,
 
#27 · (Edited)


There are two optical sensors in the C5 system. One picks up the TDC reference slot (that's the one, on its own at about 11 o'clock). The other picks up all the slots around the outside.
Presumably, if the system know exactly when the piston reached TDC, and it knows the engines RPM from measuring the time between the peripheral slots, it can calculate the exact time delay needed from the TDC reference to trigger the next spark to get the required advance for that particular engine speed.
As Truckedup has already stated, it only takes engine speed into consideration as we don't have the luxury of all the other sensors that are on modern machinery.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Rod... you are absolutely right and I apologise to you all for misleading you. The Pazon does indeed get set up at full advance.

Now that couldn't possibly be anything to do with Triumph 350s with the points in a "distributor," could it?
My '68 T90 has 'points' in the timing cover, same as the T100 and T120.

I was looking back at the photos I'd taken when I rebuilt it and there was one showing a DTI on the piston at TDC. I should have read the words I'd written because I used the DTI to set the piston 0.367" (40°) before TDC when I set up the Pazon. Put it down to a 71 year old failing memory and me being a complete dip-stick! I'll get me coat....

 
#33 ·
I looked into the how modern automotive OEM and most aftermarket ignitions determine spark advance/retard. The ECU is set for let's say 50 degrees TDC, then the advance selects the appropriate timing based on load,RPM, engine and ambient temperature, gear ratio etc...A lot more complicated than Boyer or Pazon but similar in it's all referenced off full advance.
The C5 seems to be the only ignition that may function differently?
 
#35 ·
I have been told that in the past, Pazon ignitions had timing creep at high RPMs...Normally all advanced by 3000 rpm but rev it to near 6000 rpm and it adds a a few degrees more.Don't know if this was random or if it still occurs...Could might be an issue for engines running on the threshold of detonation at the standard 38 degrees when the bike is at high rpm's for a time like in higher gear... .But the engine luggers on here never go above 3500 , so it's a non issue :grin2:
 
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