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Triumph 250 to a 441

4K views 21 replies 10 participants last post by  squariel 
#1 ·
I'm building a Cafe Racer out of my TR25 W. I'm planning on putting in a 441 Victor motor because it's a bolt in engine.

My question is, is it worth it? I believe the 441 only has a few more horsepower than the 250.

I would wait for a B50 but that would need motor mount changes and the 441 has a lot of interchangeable parts.

So bottom line, is a 441 worth it over a 250 or should I wait for a B50?

Or, if a 441 is not too different from 250, should I just use the 250?

I have a bunch of options. I am currently thinking of putting in a 441 but if it's not much different in terms of performance over the 250, is it worth it?

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
Not a lot of difference in bhp 25 vs 30 but what about the torque of the 441? Then the B50 with 34bhp & 28ft/lb at 5000 rpm.

Not bad power output when you think the A10 650cc twin was only 35bhp but would pull a sidecar loaded with a fat wife, 3 kids & a dog with ease.

All about the torque eh.
 
#3 ·
Hi,

Search the BritBike Forum, I recall several threads over the years on this subject, usually in the "BSA Board" iirc.

should I wait for a B50?
Otoh, BritBike mentions of the B50 seem to be about what recalcitrant and uncooperative beasts B50's are. :(

Otoh2, if you're looking around for a different engine for B25 cycle parts, I have a vague, half-remembered idea that people might've put small Honda engines in 'em; otoh3, that might be only in GB because Honda seem to have inflicted CD twin-cylinder engines in various capacities on GB since God was a boy, and the engines frequently outlast especially the early pressed-steel frames.

is it worth it?
Have to say, if I wanted a small-capacity cafe racer, rather like the punch-line of the Irish Directions joke, "If I was going there, I wouldn't start from here" ...

Hth.

Regards,
 
#4 ·
The B50 is really hard to come across and it would need mods to the frame.

You're right about the torque. Maybe not much more hp, but when you twist the throttle, the little 441 will have a lot more get up and go!

I think I'll go with the 441 and put the 250 under the workbench.

Thanks for your input!
 
#8 · (Edited)
Nice looking bike in the photo.....A lot of people thought of the 250 as slow and unreliable especially when ridden hard...I rode one and it was very slow compared to the 650 Triumph I had.....But it appears you can make one get up and go ok and not throw a rod...
 
#9 ·
Last time i rode a 441 it did really pull away fast and i cannot think a 250 would get anywhere near that pull.Many years ago,two of us were out riding and one rider had a BSA c15 250 and i had a G5 Matchless 350.My bike had a passenger but would still pull away much faster than a 250 bike.Big ccs will have pulling power,hence i have the Triumph Rocket 111 as a spare bike in the garage.
 
#16 ·
Yes you've convinced me. Thank you. I'm going to replace the 250 with the 441.
Does anyone know of any mods that you can do to a 441 to give it more horsepower?
Maybe bigger carb, electronic ignition, open pipes. Any other thoughts?
I'd go for weight reduction on both bike & rider for speed & reliability, keep the motor flexible throughout its rev range.
Titanium fasteners & less pies.

This stuff (see link below) might save your fuel tank from the scourge of ethanol, I've spoken to the boss there, he assures me the flowliner is good to overseal Petsealed & fibreglass tanks.

http://www.cwylde.co.uk/section.php?xSec=5
 
#13 ·
Hi Norcoastal, On the club rides 441 is way faster than 250s no comparison. Victors are very fast on the mountain roads. On freeway they cannot really run with 650 or 750 twins. But the guys cruise at 65 no problem. 250s on freeway are just ok. Really spun out.

I think all the 441 Victor motors are roller bearing rod big end. I don't know about 250 victor. The reguar 250s have insert bearings. I really don't know BSAs, but I think also the early B40 has an insert type (bushing) bearing similar to early Tiger Cub. The guys in club say the insert type big ends are not durable at high rpm on these motors. You want a roller bearing big end.

I've never ridden a 441 personally. I've ridden late B50. They are very fast. Was set up for street. Very, very fast in mountains & could maintain 70mph on freeway effortlessly. My friend rode this this bike across USA with no problems. Was very reliable & trouble free.

I don't know about New York fuel, but in California the fuel tends to deteriorate fiberglass tanks. Maybe a tank liner material can help?? I don't know. Most have changed over to steel.

441s were raced for years & can be made faster, but modern USA fuel is not really high enough octane for race motor. Will need to use race gas. Have ridden several times with friend that has Victor Roadster. It's stock. In the hills the bike is very fast. Goes 70mph on freeway all the time.
Don
 
#14 ·
When ethanol came out in our petrol,my Spitfire tank completely opened up on all the seams.The solution was to cut out the tank bottom,reline the whole interior and then bond the bottom back into place.It was a whole days work,the tank is now double its weight and been leakproof for 5 years.The new fibreglass material is the type used to build fuel tanks for R.I.B type boats and expected to last 25 years.The cost of this job,if you are paying someone, will be more than a new metal tank from India now.Using my original tank,i was able to keep that inset transfer of the 67 model.I cannot claim this as my repair but i did only pay a little amount as the boat maker was just trying his skills with a view to offering the service to customers.Unfortunately,the business folded in the same year.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Years ago I had a 441, I installed electronic ignition, a 32mm carb with a port job and a cam which was from a flat tracker( don't know whose) it went really well for what it was. There was also a modification for a crankcase breather, which was supposed to be good for a couple of HP. I'm sure you could find this some where on the net, it was a good mod. But by far the best thing I did was to replace the front end with one from a mid 70s Honda XL350, heresy I know but it had to be 25 lbs lighter. Made the bike much easier to ride off road, easier to lift the front end when needed.

And yes the 441 uses a roller rod brg, the 250s used a shell type plain brg. If you are going to ride mostly on the road you might want to fit a larger gearbox sprocket , it will pull it.
 
#19 ·
Thanks everyone for the posts. I picked up some 441 cases, a jug and a piston on eBay last night. I'm going to rebuild the motor with new bearings and have the head done professionally.

I appreciate all of your input. It's what drove me to the 441 (so to speak).

Gotta work on the tank sealer. I love the look of the Norton Commando Roadster fiberglass tank and I hope to keep it.

Thanks again and if you know of any more mods to the motor and sealers for the tank, please let me know.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I used the entire XL 350 forks and front wheel , I got a set of taper roller bearings that fit the headstock and made up some spacers so the bearings would fit on the triple clamp stem. I cant remember how I rigged up the steering stops.

Its really not that hard to do, you could probably use the stock bsa bearings if you wanted to. The early 441 up to 70 used a very heavy front end and wheel lightening it up was the best thing I did on that bike.
 
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