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Do I have an electrical problem, or do I just have a Triumph?

13K views 91 replies 9 participants last post by  StuartMac 
#1 ·
Hey all,

My bike ('78 T140E) has been behaving curiouser and curiouser in the electrical department. My dad granted me this fairly pristine example from the old shed. <10,000 miles on it. He put on new rubber bits, re-did the paint, and put in a new battery (lithium ion).

All's well and I put on about 1000 miles, but my brain being what it is, I forget to turn off the headlight from time to time, and find myself recharging the battery once in a while. I'm being careful with it, not charging it for more than 15 minutes at a time. This per the recommendation of a biker battery salesman who did me the favor of charging my battery when I found myself stranded once.

But after a while I notice that the battery's not always keeping a charge. I go to test it with the multimeter and when revving it up, the volts go through the roof. (16.5 @3,000RPMs) My dad and I figure it's the zener, but it seems to be working. I put in a new battery, and the volts top out at around 13.6. However, the amps do run pretty high (9-18A @3,000RPMs), and I'm occasionally blowing a fuse (I upgraded from 20A to 30A fuses).

So, what I am wondering, is if I might be cooking the batteries. Is something wrong, or is it just the Prince of Darkness? Should I install something like this to just pre-empt things, or are those amps at the level that I should expect?
 
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#2 ·
A few people in the UK have used L-ion and had failures.Seems they do not like vibration or the crude regulation of these old bikes.A good quality AGM type lasts a long time.I have one on each of my old bikes and over 4 years old so far.
That regulator/rectifier will work well,just make sure that you buy the correct one,single,or,3 phase.Fit in just a few minutes as on my bike.
https://youtu.be/eLepJYCXtcs
 
#3 ·
Michael


1 Please confirm your bike has a VIN between HX00100 and JX10747. This will confirm you have a 1978 T140E and not a 1979. Electrically the bikes are totally different.


2 Does this bike have the stock headlamp and is the rest of the electrical as done at the Factory?


3 I do not like the fuse problem you are having. You do not "upgrade fuses" any more than you put a penny in a fuse box to bypass a blown fuse at home. If you do not have a Brit Bike Store there go to auto parts. Ask for a Littlefuse Brand SFE20 or UK35 fuse. The original LUCAS was US rated at 17.5amps.


4 Welcome to the forum.


K
 
#6 · (Edited)
Hi Michael,

Welcome to the forum.
+1.

My dad said that a 35A fuse is what is recommended, but that is something he only recently learned. He had put a 20A fuse in, and 30A was the largest my auto parts store had in the shape that would fit. You're saying that a 20A should have been sufficient, based on original specs?
You're confusing two different specifications.

GB rates specifically those original cylindrical glass-'n'-metal fuses by 'blow' Amps - hence the "35A". Otoh, the US rates them by 'continuous' Amps - half 'blow'; there isn't a 17.5A 'continuous' Amps fuse so you use 20A (or, better still on standard electrics, 15A). You should replace whatever you've "upgraded" asap.

I forget to turn off the headlight from time to time,
This sounds like an incorrect connection at the ignition switch - the headlamp should turn off with the ignition switch; post again if you'd like details of what to check - takes a newbie maybe an hour or so.

I go to test it with the multimeter and when revving it up, the volts go through the roof. (16.5 @3,000RPMs) My dad and I figure it's the zener, but it seems to be working.
With respect, if the Volts "go through the roof. (16.5 @3,000RPMs)", how can the Zener be "working"? That's what the Zener does - limit the DC Volts (to no more than 15.3V @ ~3,000~3,500 rpm).

Before condemning the existing Zener, I would check its physical and electrical connections:-

1. Remove the fuse from the Brown/Blue wire.

2. Disconnect and unbolt the Zener from its mounting on the battery box.

3. Use your meter set to resistance (Ohms, horseshoe-shaped symbol, etc.) to check continuity (~ zero Ohms) between the fuse holder and the Zener terminal, and the Red wire and battery +ve.

4. Clean any corrosion from the Zener and where it mounts on the battery carrier.

5. Reassemble with dielectric or graphite grease (not ordinary grease because it doesn't conduct either electricity or heat).

the amps do run pretty high (9-18A @3,000RPMs),
Again with respect, I don't know what you're measuring but it ain't Amps; nothing that'll physically fit inside your bike's primary chaincase is capable of generating those Amps at those rpm, and it's a specialist meter that'll measure over 10A. Standard alternator was rated for 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm and generates about 8A @ 3,000 rpm.

If the above cleaning doesn't work, regrettably, new Zeners are expensive and generally-poor quality - you might get one that works within range, but you aren't going to know that 'til you test it and many vendors often won't accept returned electrical components. :(

Time to consider a modern combined regulator/rectifier? However, certainly not that shonky Sparx one - there are definitely-cheaper-likely-better and definitely-better. What are your electrical abilities and tool kit like?

what I am wondering, is if I might be cooking the batteries.
The Zener isn't working as-is, so that'll donald any battery.

Nevertheless, as has been posted, your dad was too kind to the bike buying it a Li-ion battery; the standard charging system wasn't built for 'em doesn't really suit 'em. Check and clean the Zener but, even if it works afterwards, be prepared for the Li-ion battery to die sooner rather than later.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#4 ·
Thanks for your replies.

My VIN is EX08096.

Yes, the headlamp is stock. None of the electricals have been replaced - to the best of my knowledge.

My dad said that a 35A fuse is what is recommended, but that is something he only recently learned. He had put a 20A fuse in, and 30A was the largest my auto parts store had in the shape that would fit. You're saying that a 20A should have been sufficient, based on original specs?
 
#5 ·
Regardless of the fuse size,that Li-ion will need replacing with an AGM.The bike would run OK without blowing a 20 amp fuse unless you do have a fault .Check what has been reported about fuse size as USA has different characteristics for the fuses to the UK.
 
#8 ·
The video of the Podtronic type unit shows how it just connects to existing rectifier wires.If you buy one,it generally states connect to the battery positive and negative but going through the ignition switch will cover it with a fuse if a fault develops in the unit.Once fitted,just disconnect the wire that goes to the zenor,it is not needed.
 
#9 ·
I will defer to Sir Stuart :wave and not duplicate what has already been said :applause. I wanted to confirm you in fact had a 78 T140 which is a POSITIVE ground vehicle. A small bits of info for you as far as the charging system.

1 With the stock headlamp on the battery is not charging until you reach about 2400RPM.

2 On my 78 T140V (NX010XX) if the battery goes flat I am able to start and ride the bike. First you remove the fuse so all power is diverted to the ignition. After starting replace the fuse so the battery may charge. A personal thing is I remove the fuse on my Brit Bikes when parking for the evening or winter storage.

3 A defective Zener Diode may or may not blow the fuse. I have seen both happen. If you do have a Zener go bad and the bike stops and will not start unplug it. Assuming that was the problem the bike will now start. You will be able to proceed at REDUCED RPM's. Remember you have just removed the 'voltage regulator' from the system.


4 Not saying you will have a problem but I have seen problems with the handle bar kill switch. If it goes bad bike will not run. Just something to be aware of.


5 SFE20 fuse was recommended due to its blow characteristics. UK35 would be preferred. Of the SFE style fuses only the 20 is the size to fit the stock fuse holder. While there are other fuses that size with ratings above and blow 20 they blow at a different rate.


6 I would not go spending money on part until it is determined what the problem is. Among other things as the bike has sat for a bit corrosion at terminals also misconnected items as some disassembly was done.


All my bikes have completely stock electrical systems and we get along fine. You first have to learn how it works and stay in the parameters. Many Lucas parts were not designed for motorcycle specific use but they do perform admirably. Other brand bikes have problems Old Yamaha XS650's used to 'eat' Alternator brushes and older Honda 750 had charging problems when the headlamp on laws came into effect among others.


K
 
#10 · (Edited)
Hi Michael,

I forget to turn off the headlight from time to time,
This sounds like an incorrect connection at the ignition switch - the headlamp should turn off with the ignition switch;
You'll need to undo the headlamp shell from the fork mountings, so you can get access to the wires connected to the ignition switch.

However, first have a look inside the headlamp shell, confirm that the toggle switch has either "31788" or "35710" either moulded into the plastic case or stamped on a metal part, and a Brown/White(?) wire is attached to either terminal #1 or terminal #4 (the numbers are very small and moulded into the switch case).

Turning to the ignition switch:-

. when you pull the rubber 'boot' off the back of the switch, you should see three wires (Brown/Blue, White and Brown/White (? - same colours as connected to toggle switch terminal #1 or #4);

. on the back of the switch should be three or four male spade terminals - if three, one physically-connected pair and a separate single rivetted to the switch; if four, two physically-connected pairs rivetted to the switch);

. the White wire and the Brown/White(?) should be connected to the same physically-connected male spade pair, the Brown/Blue wire should be connected on its own to either the single spade terminal or one of the other physically-connected pair;

. Brown/Blue is the supply from the battery; the idea is that it's connected to the White wire and the Brown/White(?) to the lights toggle switch only when the ignition switch is turned to 'on'. :thumb

Regarding the zener, what I did was put an ammeter between the zener and its wire. When I was conducting the test with the old battery, it showed that current was flowing through it.
By definition, it should not have been all the time.

The comprehensive test procedure for the standard Zener fitted to your bike is detailed in the Triumph workshop manual for your bike, manual page H13, .pdf page 182. It says that the Zener should not conduct at all below 12.75V.

However, as I say, no alternator produced by Lucas is capable of generating the "9-18A @3,000RPMs" that you saw; even if one were, you cannot have a variation of 9A at the same rpm.

I was also watching the volts over the battery with my multimeter. They would both fluctuate rather wildly,
Harbor Freight
where I got the higher-end multimeter.
My understanding from several posts over the years on the BritBike forum is Harbor Freight meters are not protected from external emi (electro-magnetic interference). When your bike's engine is running, emi is generated by the HT. 'Fraid that would account for a lot of the nonsense your meters are showing, which renders them useless as diagnostic tools. :(

To do the test properly, should I have been watching the volts over the zener instead of the battery?
Doesn't matter where you watch it, the system has (should have) the same Volts everywhere.

The usual and simplest Zener test is to connect a Volt-/multi-meter across the battery, observe the indicated Volts with everything off (~12.5V~13V), ignition on (a little less), engine running. With engine running, increasing the rpm slowly should see Volts rise with rpm to ~15V @ ~3,000~3,500 rpm, stay at that level even if engine rpm rises higher, only reducing when rpm reduces below that limit. While by no means completely comprehensive, that is a good indication the Zener is :thumb

Before condemning the existing Zener, I would check its physical and electrical connections:-
5. Reassemble with dielectric or graphite grease (not ordinary grease because it doesn't conduct either electricity or heat).
I'm wondering about the grease. It bolts onto the airbox. Where would the grease come in?
The grease simply excludes the possibility of corrosion-causing moisture between the Zener itself and its airbox and Red wire connection to battery +ve. Dielectric or graphite grease conduct electricity and heat, ordinary grease doesn't.

I generally don't do anything right the first time,
No worries, we all have to start somewhere. :) However, as I say, not only is neither the standard alternator fitted to your bike nor any alternator Lucas made capable of fitting into the physical confines of your bike's primary chaincase capable of generating 18A @ 3,000 rpm, you cannot have a variation of 9A at the same rpm, the first suspect when a meter gives impossible readings is emi, and Harbor Freight meters are notoriously not protected against emi. :Darn Btw, you don't need a "high-end" meter for emi protection, even the cheap one I carry on the bike has it ...

What are your electrical abilities and tool kit like?
If the video posted by Rambo above is anything to go by, it doesn't look all that difficult to me.
:thumb

The two commonest types of terminal on your bike are bullets and spades. Bullets specifically require a crimping tool with a half-hex in each jaw, spades require a 'M'-shaped cut-out in one jaw. Don't know whether these are available from Harbor Freight but they're definitely available from British Wiring (TT85 and PR4 respectively). However, I appreciate that you might find BW's prices expensive, I can point you at British suppliers who not only have those but cheaper tools.

The video of the Podtronic type unit shows how it just connects to existing rectifier wires.If you buy one,it generally states connect to the battery positive and negative but going through the ignition switch will cover it with a fuse if a fault develops in the unit.
Sorry, 'fraid this is A Bad Idea.

As I posted above, Lucas rated the standard alternator for 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm and ~8A @ 3,000 rpm.

Asking the ignition switch contacts to transmit these sort of Amps just to save the cost of a common automotive blade fuse and holder in one of the wires between reg./rec. and battery is not sensible.

If you decide to upgrade the alternator in the future, the arrangement makes even less sense.

Hth.

Regards,

'Mornin' K, :)
 
#17 ·
Okay, it seems like I have my homework cut out for me.

I just wanted to take the quick moment to thank you all for your replies and help.

I'll probably respond to other aspects later, as I investigate further, but here's what I have time for:

My understanding from several posts over the years on the BritBike forum is Harbor Freight meters are not protected from external emi (electro-magnetic interference). When your bike's engine is running, emi is generated by the HT. 'Fraid that would account for a lot of the nonsense your meters are showing, which renders them useless as diagnostic tools. :(
I guess I'll have to make a tin-foil hat for my multimeter - or at least situate it further from the bike when running diagnostics. I already feel like I have to be Vishnu for some of these tests, but it keeps it interesting.

No worries, we all have to start somewhere. :) However, as I say, not only is neither the standard alternator fitted to your bike nor any alternator Lucas made capable of fitting into the physical confines of your bike's primary chaincase capable of generating 18A @ 3,000 rpm, you cannot have a variation of 9A at the same rpm,...
Yeah, I'm guessing my reading was just faulty then, but if I'm burning up these fuses, doesn't that indicate that at times I am running that sort of high current - which is causing the burnouts? That's not an alternator capacity issue, but a shorting-out fault.

When I get a moment I'll be running the tests again, and will report my findings.:nerd:
 
#11 ·
The wiring for your bike is the same as my T120V.
If you stop/break down at night, you must show a red light to the rear and a white light forwards...in the UK anyway.
This is provided by the pilot light switched ON, with the ignition switch on or off.
Toggle switch lever pointing up.
There is a brown/blue to pin 4 of the light switch from the -12V side. (maybe ign sw., zener or bridge rectifier - terminal.)
But the headlight needs the ignition on, as it would drain the battery quickly if left on with the ignition.
 
#12 ·
Hi Caulky,

My bike ('78 T140E)
The wiring for your bike is the same as my T120V.
No, it isn't.

There is a brown/blue to pin 4 of the light switch from the -12V side.
Only if someone's been screwing around with the electrics on Michael's bike. As standard on a '78 T140E, there isn't.

the headlight needs the ignition on, as it would drain the battery quickly if left on with the ignition.
That's why I've suggested that Michael arranges the connections on the ignition switch so that it turns the headlamp on and off as well.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#16 ·
Regarding the old parking/sidelight arrangement.I took out my front side light as it is not an MOT requirement.This allowed me to fit a different halogen light unit.Later,i connected a day riding LED under the headlight and i get seen by the cars now.Of course,like a lot of parts,i change things around so running a concave Cibie light with old tungsten lamp now.Not very bright but it looks good ! There are some lower wattage halogens available to fit the old lampholders now and bought one for the original looking BSA.Its about 40 watt.Generally,i do not go out at night due to all the wildlife trying to knock me off.Worst type are the wild deer but have had encounters with cows,horses and sheep getting on the road.Had one encounter with a horse and the car overturned.Another incident with a car hitting the back legs of a cow which sat down and squashed the front end down quite a bit .Several bike riders have been killed within 4 miles of my house by the wild deer at night.
 
#19 ·
Follow every wire and check inside the headlight unit,the lampholders and you might find a wire contacting the frame or case.Wires might also chafe through where in a tight fitting area.You might find the short circuit this way.Inspection is the best tool.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Gentlemen

Regarding the Headlamp/Parking lamp question. Since about 1976, on US bikes, the pilot bulb is wired to the headlamp bulb. When the headlamp is on the pilot bulb is on. It cannot be operated by itself.. By reviewing the 1978 T140E parts supplement there is reference to a diode pack used for headlamp on.


Michael

To see parts book for your bike www.vintagebikemagazine.com Use both the T140V(#99-7003) Book and T140E (#00-7003) Supplement Book.

For a wiring diagram use the Service Manual link Stuart posted earlier. Use the one on page H22, but be aware this one does not show the diode pack mentioned above. Nor is it shown correctly in the T140E Owners Manual(www.classicbike.biz).

As previously suggested by others I am of the opinion you have a dead short somewhere in the system. Possibly caused by a defective part, incorrect wiring, a bare wire grounding out, or combination of these. If it was me first thing I would do is compare the diagram to how your wires are connected at the same time looking for any bare, frayed, or rubbing wires. Look also for a common theme in when the fuse blows. Such as handlebar being turned to the right or left, hitting a bump etc. I have a bike, when it was new, used to shut off when riding. I noticed it occurred when the handlebars were moved just so. Played around and found out (saw sparks under the gas tank) clutch cable was rubbing against the coil and grounding out the ignition. Before you ask the problem bike was a Yamaha.

One other thing take care of the Styling panels on your bike. They are not the same as those on the T140V and to the best of my knowledge are not being reproduced..


K
 
#21 ·
Hi K, Michael,

For a wiring diagram use the Service Manual link Stuart posted earlier. Use the one on page H22, but be aware this one does not show the diode pack mentioned above. Nor is it shown correctly in the T140E Owners Manual(www.classicbike.biz).
Ekshully ... :whistle :) ... neither wiring diagram shows the correct headlamp toggle switch or wiring for a '78 T140E ...

Note in an earlier post I asked Michael to "confirm that the toggle switch has either "31788" or "35710" either moulded into the plastic case or stamped on a metal part"? The switch shown in both wiring diagrams is 34419, as used '73-on on the T140V (and T150V, TR7RV and T120V).

Otoh, if you look in the '78 T140E Supplement parts book, hidden on "PAGE FOURTEEN" is the line, "[Part No.]31788 ... Headlight switch ... 1 ... [Replaces]34419".

31788 and 35710 are the toggle switches used '68-'70 (plus '71-'74 on the T100); if you look at the wiring diagrams for those years, you'll see the switch has internal electrical connections between terminal #1 and terminals #7 & #8 - i.e. terminals #7 and #8 are where the pilot lamp, tail lamp (Brown/Green) and headlamp (Blue) wires are attached; if a wire from the ignition switch is attached to terminal #1, the lights will be on when the ignition switch is on. :thumb

By reviewing the 1978 T140E parts supplement there is reference to a diode pack used for headlamp on.
Curiously, I've never seen one of these. :confused: With using the 31788 (or 35710) switch and the connections I've described, the '78 T140E would comply with the FMVSS 'headlamp on' reg.; without a wiring diagram showing the diodes, I can't see what purpose they'd serve, unless there's a function to switch on the headlamp itself only once the engine was running?

Hth.

Regards,
 
#23 ·
If there is a way for you to post a couple of pictures that would be good. Note the front brake switch is part of the switch assembly and not available separately. I am also curious about the turn signal switch and turn signals as this could be part of the problem.


K
 
#24 ·
If there is a way for you to post a couple of pictures that would be good. Note the front brake switch is part of the switch assembly and not available separately. I am also curious about the turn signal switch and turn signals as this could be part of the problem.
I can certainly take and post pictures. It seems like this forum, being able to upload images, is especially good for that.

Are there specific things I should take snapshots of?

The turn signal assembly had to be replaced. Inside the housing the rivet around which the switch lever rotated had snapped, and was otherwise just frayed. I replaced it with a Sparx replica. The signal lights and mounts themselves are also replicas. They do seem slow in their blinking, and the rate at which they do so does speed up as I get more RPMs and with the charge on the battery.

Did the plot just thicken?
 
#25 · (Edited)
Michael

When we hear things are changed just like to know what the replacement are. Luv pics

Slow flashing? Low battery, bulbs not correct for system, less than perfect ground.

Would you take a look at the thread T140E Project Bike. Your bike got that loose wire (looks to be white) or is it plugged into something like may be a diode pack?



May not be around till late tomorrow.

K
 
#26 · (Edited)
Okay, I'm trying my hand at posting images. This forum's interface is a bit new to me (but seemingly quite advanced).

Anyway, here we have the battery and its environs:

I've pulled the fuse for the moment. You can see the zener up at the right-hand top of the image. At a glance, all the wires look to be the right colors, though I'm about to do some tracing, I think just to get a more visceral sense of which goes where.

Here is the headlamp's innards:

You can see the switch, hanging upside down there center-stage. As you can see here, but as I detailed above, it does not match the wiring diagram on H22.

Here's the switch from the front, where you can read the numbers.

The numbers are not that easy to read, but they read "35710A 35 77".

Finally, there's the back of the ignition switch, after I pulled the headlamp assembly out.

The black wire coming across it and up to the right-hand top is the signal light wire going into the mounting. Where you see the black wire crossing the white wires is the obligatory spider corpse. :)
 

Attachments

#30 ·
Stuart :wave


Not to be argumentative ignition switch looks to be connected correctly based on the 78 T140 wiring diagram. I would love to find out where the Diode pack plugs into. :hmmmmm


Also previously mentioned VIN is EX08xxx


Gotta run....


K
 
#31 ·
Hi K, :)

ignition switch looks to be connected correctly based on the 78 T140 wiring diagram.
Mmmm ... but that's based on having a 34419 lights toggle switch, which switches pilot 'n' tail lamps separately from headlamp, for the British 'parking lights' requirement. Michael posted all the way back in his first post, "I forget to turn off the headlight from time to time"; I'm guessing that the lights don't have to be separately switchable? I'm just suggesting a way that, when Michael switches off the ignition, the lights go off too. :thumb

previously mentioned VIN is EX08xxx
:Darn Duh ... Thanks.

Eeeenteresting though ... the '78 handlebar switch clusters have different five-figure numbers from earlier, and all the Lucas ones I've seen have had individual bullet terminals on the wires; those AMP plugs were a rrpita from the earliest on the T160. :(

Gotta run...
Catch you on the flip-flop? :D

Regards,
 
#35 ·
Hi K, :)

Appreciate what you're saying.

The only thing I can't figure out is what the 60-7079 diode and wiring was supposed to achieve? The diode was clearly to prevent electricity powering something when switches were in a certain state, but I can't work out what the "Remarks" in the parts book are supposed to mean, particularly if the use of White wires was significant? :confused:

Regards,
 
#36 ·
Just quick, I am confused.

Referring to image below, the internal switch connections on the left-hand side of the image are the connections according to H19 from the '63-'70 manual. H22('73-'78) does not show the internal diagram. I thought you were telling me to use this diagram, as this was identical to the wiring for 35710, even if it was produced later.

 
#39 ·
Hi Michael,

the internal switch connections on the left-hand side of the image are the connections according to H19 from the '63-'70 manual. H22('73-'78) does not show the internal diagram. I thought you were telling me to use this diagram, as this was identical to the wiring for 35710, even if it was produced later.

The internal switch connections on the left-hand side of the image are the internal switch connections of the 35710 switch on your bike.

The internal switch connections on the left-hand side of the image are not those of the switch in the "H22('73-'78)" diagram, on the right-hand side of the image.

Some parts of the "H22('73-'78)" diagram are the same as your bike - e.g. the handlebar switch clusters wiring, the headlamp wire colours ... and, from your earlier description, apparently the shonky oil pressure warning lamp wiring ... :bluduh But please exercise great care, especially when attempting to extrapolate conclusions - some other parts of the "H22('73-'78)" diagram are entirely different from your bike - e.g. the toggle switch wiring.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#45 ·
Sorry, fellows, for having been absent a while. Life intruded.

Immediate update: I ran the diagnostics again on the zener and the battery, trying to keep the multimeter away from the bike. On the volts side, it didn't crank up beyond 12v much at all (I was also using my semi-fried battery, which was averaging 9v). Testing the current over the zener didn't give me anything, probably because I wasn't getting the volts up high enough for it to kick in. I was also alone, and somewhat pressed for time, and managing all these wires going all over the place, so I said "screw it."

During which, as I found out yesterday, I neglected to hook up the zener.

I was also still finding blown fuses. However, I believe the source of the problem there, I think, was that some of the prongs on the toggle switch were live, and probably hitting the positive ground coming off the headlamp. I put plastic-covered spade connectors on them to shield them from that. So far, no blown fuses.


But at that point I also found out that my pilot light doesn't work. The juice is there, and the bulb doesn't look burnt, but I do see a tiny gap along the filament wire. A replacement bulb has been very hard to find. I'm going to try a Batteries plus Bulbs store for that bulb, and...

...the battery. Because as you read above, I neglected to hook up the zener.

...which I found out yesterday as I was stuck on the side of the road with a smoking ruin of an ex-lithium ion battery (the fried-out 9v one).

When my wife arrived with the good lithium ion battery, I hooked up the zener and the new battery, and rode home.

It also seems my instrument lights (tach & speedo) aren't lighting up.


Anyways, so when I'm at Batteries Plus looking for a bulb, I also need to pick up a battery. What type do you recommend? Any AGM 12v of roughly the right size? Is it worth it to also get a new rectifier/regulator?

Also, I do want to do some more wire-tracing per above recommendations - just so that I know what the wiring diagram of my bike is actually like, rather than what we see depicted in H22. Since the instrument lights aren't coming on, I'll have to go back in anyway.

The brake light switch is on order.
 
#47 ·
Hi Michael,

On the volts side, it didn't crank up beyond 12v much at all (I was also using my semi-fried battery, which was averaging 9v).
You're misinterpreting what you're seeing:-

. To all intents and purposes, it's the battery that sets the DC system Volts. 9V from certainly a conventional 12V battery would indicate something like one dead cell and one half-dead cell. If you attempted to charge it, any charging system (including an alternator and rectifier) simply 'sees' this as a badly-discharged battery; as I posted earlier, the Zener won't (shouldn't) conduct at all 'til the system (battery) Volts are above 12.75V. However, the dead cells simply turn any charge into heat. :(

. What you are seeing is a "9V" battery and a charge 3V higher. So with a battery giving a proper 12V, if the Zener allows it, you could see 15V. :thumb

'Fraid you cannot determine anything about the alternator, rectifier and/or Zener with a dud battery connected.

pilot light doesn't work.
A replacement bulb has been very hard to find.
In addition to "Kadutz's" details, ;) assuming an original/standard bulb and holder, its generic is BA9s.

If you're looking for a replacement, why not consider a LED or quartz-halogen, as per my advice in my previous post? Enter "ba9s led" and/or "ba9s quartz halogen" into your preferred internet search engine and follow the returned links.

I do want to do some more wire-tracing per above recommendations - just so that I know what the wiring diagram of my bike is actually like, rather than what we see depicted in H22. Since the instrument lights aren't coming on,
You have posted this already ...

There's a Brown/Green coming off of 4, which splits off into a Brown/Green, which is goes to the instrument lights and the oil,
... and I replied:-

here's what I suggest for your bike:-
. Move the Brown/Green on terminal #4 to terminal #7 - all the time the ignition switch is 'on', the tail, speedo. and tacho. lamps will be on.
... as you've been away for a while, maybe re-read the whole thread, so we don't go over what's been answered/suggested/solved again? ;)

when I'm at Batteries Plus
pick up a battery. What type do you recommend? Any AGM 12v of roughly the right size?
The '78 workshop manual says 8 Ah (Amp-hours); if that's what you mean by "size", yes. It'll be smaller physically than the space Triumph allowed forty-odd years ago, so also look at some closed-cell foam or similar to fill the space? Imho, not a lot of point paying for much more?

Is it worth it to also get a new rectifier/regulator?
Ime, work with what you've got unless you know it doesn't work. What make is this "new rectifier/regulator"? If it isn't well-known, how do you know you aren't substituting a problematic or non-working reg./rec. for a perfectly-functioning rectifier and Zener? :Darn Even if you do end up needing one, likely you'll get a better-known one for less through the interweb.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#46 ·
Pilot blub Lucas 989 auto parts look for a 6253. Other bulbs that can be used re 53, 57,1816, 1891, 1895 but will not be as bright

Instrument bulb Lucas 504 at auto parts look for a 168 or 2821 bulb if you wish to see gauges after dark. If you can also use a 161 or 194 bulb you won't be able to see the gauges as well.


Tell the battery guy recommended replacement battery is a 12N9-4B1 in a wet cell. That is a 12 volt 9 amp hr. battery other numbers refer to vent tube and cable locations. If he cant match you up with that info go to another store. Original battery was a Lucas PUZ5A (also known as #54027029) this was an 8 amp hr. battery


K
 
#48 ·
You, sirs, are a scholars and gentlemen. Thanks for the advice and the numbers.

@KADUTZ
So, you are recommending a 'wet' battery over AGM? Just as a cost-saver?

@StuartMac
Yes, you've given me a lot to sort through. I really appreciate all your input, and I have read it a couple of times, but have yet to go down and do that while also tracing things along on the bike itself. I do intend to do that still. I just have to find the breathing space.

I'll certainly take your advice about not installing reg./rec. unless I find a reason to (ie. the current system doesn't work properly).
 
#49 ·
MichaelW:relax

I am not suggesting that you use item A or Item B. What I am giving you is information on what was original and what you can easily obtain locally in the U.S.. The suggested bulbs should have a similar candlepower output to the OEM bulb & be easily available.:easy_button

Our friend Stuart :waveis correct the original battery was a 8 amp hr. In the 1978 U.S Triumph Service Seminar book it is suggested that the 9 amp hr. battery be used. That is because there was/is no 8 amp her battery that would fit in the battery box. One practice I do on all my Triumphs is to insulate the battery terminals from the seat pan. This is done with a piece of old inner tube under the battery strap over the terminals.


K:drippy
 
#50 ·
The plot thickens.

The burst pilot bulb issue was not alone, and the non-working instrument lights were not due to wires not being connected. It was a matter of ALL the bulbs having burst - the pilot, tail light, instrument lights. The main headlight still works, though.

I'm guessing that the problem was that when I didn't have the zener hooked up that the volts got so high that it killed all of those bulbs, and, well, that poor old lithium-ion battery.

Anyway, I now have a new battery, and new bulbs. I put the volt meter on it again while revving, and I'm handily going over 15 volts. Is it really premature to declare the zener and R/R combination dead enough to warrant getting the new unit? If not, what type would you all recommend?
 
#51 ·
Hi Michael,

new battery,
volt meter on it again while revving, and I'm handily going over 15 volts. Is it really premature to declare the zener and R/R combination dead enough to warrant getting the new unit?
The '78 workshop manual, on page H13 (.pdf page 182), in "Zener Diode - Charging Regulator" "Test Procedure", says the Zener is ok allowing the system Volts to rise up to 15.3V.

If your tests are showing the Zener on your bike allows the Volts to rise higher, or you aren't happy with them rising that high and want to replace with a combined regulator/rectifier:-

. Podtronics or Tympanium have been fitted to Britbikes for decades; regular contributor "johntioc" makes the Pod or, if you pick a Tymp and ever needed it testing, Tymp's maker allows John to handle that.

. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltage-Rectifier-Regulator-Motorcycle-For-HONDA-VFR750-1990-1997-CB500-USA-/301603468942

The eBay one is for a 3-phase alternator; otoh, if you buy a Podtronics or Tympanium, I advise a 3-phase version. Reason is, even though your bike's current standard alternator is single-phase, it can be connected either to a single-phase reg./rec. or a 3-phase one; however, if you ever decide to upgrade your bike's alternator, 3-phase are most powerful but, if you buy a single-phase reg./rec. now, you'll have to buy a 3-phase reg./rec. to go with any new alternator.

Hth.

Regards,
 
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