Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

Has anyone ever seen an engine number like this?

17K views 128 replies 19 participants last post by  KADUTZ 
#1 ·
Just acquired a 1969 Tiger T100 and can't get any advice/information to explain why it has this peculiar engine #.
Clearly some mods have been done because it is currently sporting twin carbs even though marked as T100C.

The seller suggested the SR is a service replacement and that it may have left the factory, or have been retruned to the factory, for an exchange engine?

Thanks on advance for any inputs
 

Attachments

See less See more
1
#5 ·
Sorry, absolute rubbish. Why would the factory, or anyone else who had legitimate intentions machine away the multiple Triumph logo's? Also, by 69 the factory were using a one piece stamp for the model designation. Why then would they need to individually stamp the model designation on these cases?

Rod
 
#6 ·
Hi,

Sorry, absolute rubbish. Why would the factory, or anyone else who had legitimate intentions machine away the multiple Triumph logo's? Also, by 69 the factory were using a one piece stamp for the model designation. Why then would they need to individually stamp the model designation on these cases?
Mmmm ... T100R, T100C, T100T, T100S and T90 all had the same crankcase. Nevertheless, I agree, nothing else says "legit." and everything about "SR" is an internet myth.

Just acquired a 1969 Tiger T100 and can't get any advice/information to explain why it has this peculiar engine #.
Clearly some mods have been done because it is currently sporting twin carbs even though marked as T100C.

The seller suggested the SR is a service replacement and that it may have left the factory, or have been retruned to the factory, for an exchange engine?
Just as a matter of interest, how do you know it's a '69? '69-on 'C'-range has significant (desirable?) differences from previous.

Single-/twin-carb. T100's are relatively easy, just bolt the appropriate manifolds and carb(s). to the head.

The seller was just peddling a speculative internet myth.

The point of engine number matching frame number and little "Triumph" logos under both is they were additional theft deterrence. So, having introduced them for the '69 season, why would "the factory" negate them by supplying crankcases without logos and with different details on them? :confused:

Aiui, the factory supplied crankcases for specific warranty replacement. In theory, whomever (e.g. dealer) was supplied was supposed to stamp the details on the damaged crankcases on to the replacement crankcases and return the damaged crankcases to the factory for assessment and destruction. In practice, there doesn't seem to have been much follow-up on returns/destruction ... :(

Hth.

Regards,
 
#7 ·
It's the other little symbol that stamped into the cases that intrigues me. It's quite distinctive and has been reported on two engines in this forum. The numbers are quite close together so it's not unlikely that there are (were?) others around somewhere, sometime.
Mabybe a little Googling on the symbol could turn up something relevant. If you were just ringing the cases with a false number, why bother with another symbol that could lead the authorities to you? Just a thought....
 
#9 ·
That quite intricate stamp makes me wonder if it is an aftermarket shop stamping the engine as a specially rebuilt unit. I've never seen any factory engine number stamps on a Triumph that have such fine structure on them. Has anyone taken these apart and looked to see if they have been hopped up (hot cams, con rods, etc)? It would be kind of surprising if they had done thousands of them (based on the engine number) and no one had ever heard of them. Unless it's a code of some kind.
 
#13 ·
What you have is a set of cases that have had the factory number removed and different set of numbers added. The extra logo, queens award or not is immaterial. Nothing about the stamps suggests that they are factory. What the previous owner has managed to convince you is that the Triumph factory were defacing new or used cases before building them up, then just for ****s and giggles some fella whacked on an extra stamp he happened to have in his tool box. While I understand why you want to convince yourself you were not duped by this chap there simply is no logic to the argument.

Rod
 
#16 ·
Usually the plate is machined down enough to delete the old numbers. There is usually enough raised plate left to add the new numbers as can be seen in the lower pic with the 2365 number. It's interesting that whomever did the 2393 number took the plate down below the surface of the case. makes me think someone didn't ever want the old number read. But a good detective could acid test the old numbers back up. Also note that the TR6R used different punches for the model number and the VIN while the other used the same set of punches for both numbers. Would the factory have done this?
 
#27 ·
The only "good" news is that the OP may be the legal owner/keeper of the bike in a strange country like the UK, even if it was once stolen.
Which could be why Brits have scoured the USA for the past 30 years buying up these bikes and why when I check engine numbers when going through UK auctions and boot sales I see so many motorcycles with altered numbers.

In the UK you can buy reproductions of the "BSA" and "Triumph" logo stamps to start your own little industry.

For example Georgia law on the subject (similar to laws in the other states):
"O.C.G.A. 40-4-22 (2010)
40-4-22. Buying, selling, receiving, concealing, using, possessing, or disposing of motor vehicle or part thereof from which identification has been removed or altered


(a) It shall be unlawful to buy, sell, receive, dispose of, conceal, use, or possess any motor vehicle, or any part thereof, from which the manufacturer's serial numbers or other distinguishing numbers or identifying marks have been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identity of such motor vehicle.

(b) Any person who knowingly violates any provisions of subsection (a) of this Code section is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, shall be punished by confinement in the penitentiary for not less than one nor more than five years. "
 
#28 ·
The problem with that law in Ga. is there is no enforcement or inspection to start the process. All I need for a bike that old is to have a hand written Bill of Sale at the DMV and I walk out with registration in hand. There is no inspection of the bike. If the VIN isn't in the system they don't check anything. Calif. has a law just like Ga. My XR was confiscated in Ca. due to one of the case half serial numbers having been marred to where they couldn't be read. I argued in court, and won, that the secondary serial numbers for each case half were not legal VIN numbers and that the marred numbers could not be proven one way or the other if they were stolen. They made me go to the Burglary Autotheft Division (The Man from BAD) to run a trace of the numbers to determine if they were stolen and then issue me a new assigned VIN plate. Calif.'s early law read that if the numbers couldn't be read and determined if they were stolen they would issue a new assigned VIN tag for the bike. Well that law didn't last long as bikes were being stolen, numbers obliterated, and the state was giving free stolen bikes to thieves. The law changed so that any "altered VIN's would be confiscated." When they did the trace on my bike and the Man from BAD cleared everything he told me the law says I can't attach this assigned VIN tag to your bike anymore by law. So, because he had a court order to issue the tag, he just put it in my hand and walked away. None of the police were happy about my case. Fortunately my Harley didn't come with a VIN on the frame, only the left half engine case.
 
#33 ·
Here's another thread over on britbike, which I believe has some of our local members on it!

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255180&page=2

Anyway, I see some people there with matching SR case and frames (pictures provided), which would seem like it's a factory number. I can understand how to change the case numbers just by grinding down and restamping the aluminum, but wouldn't this be very hard with the frame as it is steel? Maybe I'm just not underhanded enough.
 
#34 ·
Hi,

I see some people there with matching SR case and frames (pictures provided), which would seem like it's a factory number.
Uh-uh, you risk confusing the issue:-

. As I posted before:-

When used by Meriden, "SR" was a suffix to the model code ("TR6SR"), not a prefix to the number
"SR" as a model code suffix is documented as being used between the beginning of the '62 season to part-way through the '66 season on some US-only variants - TR6SR, T100SR and T20SR. The T120SR's (which are Bonnevilles, not Trophys) aren't documented but obviously exist.
During '66, the "S" was dropped and model codes became just "TR6R", "TR6C", etc.

So "SR" as a model code suffix was out of use long before 650 crankcases with number 'pads' appeared?
... "matching SR case and frames (pictures provided)" are quite clearly of "SR" used as a model code suffix; otoh, the "SR" in the pictures posted by the o.p. and in the thread linked by Paul are quite clearly of "SR" as a prefix to the number, the model codes have more common "C" and "P" suffixes.

. Post #255164 in the BritBike forum thread does detail "SR" used for "Service Replacement":-

"when a bike came in to the factory workshops for repair AFTER it had been sold , because Triumph offered this service to the public for warranty work or otherwise , IF new unstamped cases were used in the repair it was not unknown as John Healy has said for the factory mechanics to stamp the same number as the original cases for the customers convenience : BUT to ensure that the cases were known to be new and NOT repaired they stamped SR after the number," (my underline).

I.e. for clarity:-

. no mention of new cases machined to remove "Triumph" logos (why would they? :confused:);

. neither a late-'69-on TR6 nor "'69 T100C" would have had a four-figure number;

. the "SR" has not been "stamped ... after the number";

. no mention of a Queens Award symbol stamped randomly (why would they? :confused:).

Hth.

Regards,
 
#35 · (Edited)
I seem to recall someone mentioning the "White Helmet" (?) drill team using "P" bikes with the Queen's Award stampings to denote their fleet, and stock pool of spare engines. Maybe some DIDN'T have the "P" designation, or maybe not...

Pure speculation on my part, I'm guessing Queen's stamped bikes are limited to the UK, although a half-handful may have made it over here over the course of the intervening 40 years.

Further speculation is that factory (of course) police, and military may have been the only ones with access to Queen's stamps, maybe the larger dealers with depot facilities...
 
#37 ·
Hi Paul,

factory (of course) police, and military may have been the only ones with access to Queen's stamps, maybe the larger dealers with depot facilities...
Uh-uh, the whole point of a Queen's Award to Industry to a company was that particular company had been outstanding in the previous year, either in Technological Innovation or Exports (the two Award categories). At the time, the Queen's Awards were part of major politically-inspired drives for British industry to recapture the technological leads and export markets it was losing or had lost through the 1950's. As has been posted already, receipt of an Award allowed the company to use the logo for the following five years; as I posted previously, BSA used it on sidepanel badges. 'Fraid there isn't any conceivable reason for any sort of restriction to "access to Queen's stamps".

And there wasn't any suggestion that stamped company logos should be ground down/off to stamp an Award logo ...

I'm guessing Queen's stamped bikes are limited to the UK,
Afaik, where a company used the logo depended on the company; if it was meaningful in an export market, a company was free to use it there.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#36 ·
Further speculation is that factory (of course) police, and military may have been the only ones with access to Queen's stamps, maybe the larger dealers with depot facilities...
In the UK you can get any stamp your little heart desires... The BSA and Triumph logo stamps are, and have been for years, readily available in the UK. I am sure if you wanted a Queen's Award stamp you could have one in short order. Now there are/were some clever lads doing this kind of work.

Actually the raised pad made things worse as it provided more opportunity for the less clever, but still handy characters, to alter the numbers. The pad can be machined off leaving a new fresh surface to ply their craft. Even more clever is the lads who machine part of the pad where the numbers reside leaving the edges untouched and weld up the pad to original height. Then stamp the logos on the fresh surface. While a good eye will catch this it is immediately made obvious when looking at the crankcase mouth just above the pad.

The pad, and the stamped logo, came about because of how clever some very talented individuals became at changing a 9 into an 8, 1 into a 4, 6 into an 8, etc.. It was bad in most large cities in the US, but especially bad in the greater Boston, MA area. Things changed a lot when they finally caught the "ring leader" as it were. It turned out to be the Boston police commissioner in charge of auto theft.

It became so bad that Triumph Baltimore flew two factory workers who were in charge of the stamping at the factory to examine bikes collected at local dealers. I watched their amazement when bikes they claimed as original as the state police chemist raised the original numbers. Then were shown the original number that had been written under the oil cap gasket when the bike was set-up for sale.

Conservatively at least half of the new Triumph, BSA, Norton and Harley Sportster's sold in the 1960's in Boston were stolen within the first year of ownership. There were groups all around the city stealing bikes. One of the more prolific were a group putting themselves through college with the proceeds. One individual, an engraver by trade, was particularly clever at changing numbers and was kept quite busy. Surprisingly few of these bikes are still in the states. As title laws were enacted (Mass was not a title state for motorcycles) and consumers became more aware a lot of these bikes were exported to the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

While the job on the 500 looks tidy and you might attribute it to legitimate source (not Triumph), who ever changed the numbers on what appears to be a 650 didn't have a clue.
 
#46 ·
Rod

Please do not think my failure to respond to the above question has been an avoidance it is not I am just trying to find info to resolve these SR questions. So far we have come up with four engines with the SR prefix three are TR6P engines one is the T100C. Of the three known numbers are SR2365, 2393, 2396 all are supposed to have the Queens Mark. Is anyone else seeing a pattern here? What does the SR stand for I have no idea I seriously doubt it stands for Silly Rabbit. The factory never used either S or R as date codes that I am aware of. Soooo Service Replacement is as good any.

I am going to email a friend in the know asking for a favor (something I NORMALLY DO NOT DO) about this.

With regard to the grinding I don't know the answer to your question. It is one of the questions I am going to ask. My first thought is if the engine is being remanufactured by someone or some company in the UK and you are going to legally restamp them the old numbers have to be removed. OR if the bike was stolen and the local Government or State agency were to restamp the numbers they might grind the pad. I have a 650 triumph engine ,somewhere around here, that was restamped by the State of Illinois It now has SOS numbers for Secretary of State.






K
 
#44 ·
Hi Paul,

the only people who could convince me are dead,
If you go to the linked BritBike forum thread, you'll see the post I referenced, the quote is attributed to Les Williams, then "the experimental shop foreman at Triumph Engineering" (Meriden Experimental Department). As Les is something of a god amongst long-time triple owners, I hope I'd have heard of his passing ...

Regards,
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top