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Front Brake Hose replacement, T140?

18K views 79 replies 12 participants last post by  Rod Rocket 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm taking a second look at the parts I have for the T140 front brake rebuild.


Calipers have been disassembled, cleaned, painted and reassembled with stainless pistons, seals and new pads.
Master cylinder has been disassembled and in the process of being cleaned, and replacement seal kit fitted.

The old hoses are junk.

I'd say there are parts missing, including the top yoke to bottom yoke tube (60-4176), & pipe support bracket (83-7064).

Also, does the fork leg/caliper pipe (60-4178) get scrapped or does it also remain?


I understand if I deviate from standard parts, I'll need to supply Australian ADR paperwork with aftermarket hoses.


What's the deal with replacement aftermarket hoses?

Would it be a single hose from master cylinder to caliper or is it in two parts connected via the top yoke to bottom yoke tube/pipe support bracket, & the fork leg/caliper hose?


I'm thinking if aftermarkets are similarly priced to the originals, then aftermarkets is the way to go!

Also what mechanism trips the rear brake light, and how would this be achieved using aftermarkets?


cheers.

R R.
 
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#2 ·
I al;ways fit a single braided hose from the master cylinder to the caliper - for the brake switch i use a combined banjo bolt with built in switch to fix the hose to the master cylinder - available in the correct UNF thread assuming you are using the original type master cylinder
 
#3 ·
Thanks Wol.

At this stage it'll need to be UNF as I'm planning to keep the original master cylinder assembly.

Is the "pipe support bracket (83-7064)" retained to secure the single braided hose, or is this done with a replacement part?

Do you have any links to replacement kits (which might include a switched banjo)?

Does a wire come away from the switched banjo and feed into the handle bar switch block?
 
#4 ·
I have a 79 - so have a hose from brake lever to top yoke, original pipe between yokes, this has a hydraulic switch, hose from there to leg bracket ( stainless) and a pipe to caliper.

My Hoses are now stainless. as are the cylinders
I made my own in 84 but bought some later on

Rear wise ( underslung caliper) i replaced the hose with stainless all the way to the calliper and junked the S pipe.
I modified a front chrome cover to fit.

( apparently you can buy a Trident one that doesn't need mods)
 
#5 ·
Sounds a nice set up D.

Unfortunately, over here, I'd need an engineers report to state any non standard brake lines/parts conform with ADR (Australia).

If I made my own, or imported aftermarkets, arranging an engineers report could cost several times more $'s over the hardware purchase. :eek:

Unfortunately I need to track down a guy whose arranged approval and can supply the papers. :crying:

Was there a benefit in keeping the pipes (at yoke & at caliper)?
 
#8 ·
Hi Rocky,

I understand if I deviate from standard parts, I'll need to supply Australian ADR paperwork with aftermarket hoses.
You're very lucky. There's a guy in Melbourne who not only rides similar old Brit. heaps to the rest of us but runs his own hydraulic hose business. He can supply anything you want and the ADR paperwork to go with it; talk to Nigel on 0488 793 303, tell him Stuart from IKBA sent you. :)

Turning to what you might or might not want; the front end of my T100 is essentially the same as your bike's; I'll tell you what I did, you can decide if any of it's any use to you:-

The old hoses are junk.
. Don't buy new rubber hoses. I'm not sure that AP (Automotive Products) still make 'em (e.g. they don't make the master cylinders) and, even if they did, you or someone else'd be looking at changing 'em in ten years' time. :(

. Worst case, you can reuse the existing steel hoses and just replace the rubber hoses with braided; if you want the braided to look similar to original rubber, braided is available covered with coloured plastic and black is one of the colours.

. Another plastic option is clear, so the bling can be seen. :D However, whatever parts you get made in stainless braided hose, I strongly advise against braid not covered with anything; if it rubs against anything else, the braid'll cheerfully work its way through that "anything else". :( This is particularly important if you don't use the standard hose brackets on the top yoke, lower yoke and slider.

. On the T100, I have used the aforementioned brackets, because I wanted the pipework to look 'not dissimilar' to the standard stuff. However, if you do this also, bear in mind:-

.. braided hose itself is relatively inexpensive, it's the end fittings that cost;

parts missing,
pipe support bracket (83-7064).
.. the "pipe support bracket" must be fitted and "fork leg/caliper pipe (60-4178)" must either remain or be replicated in stainless 'bundi' pipe - the bends between the bracket and caliper are considerably smaller than the minimum recommended for standard -03 (diameter) braided hose;

.. otoh, if you decide on braided hose from lower yoke direct to caliper, neither 83-7064 nor 60-4178 are required. :thumb

. Pay the extra for stainless end fittings. Plated or (blue-'n'-red) anodised ally looks crap after a few years; otoh, I have 30-year-old Goodridge stainless fittings that look exactly the same as new ones.

. I haven't used the combined pressure switch and banjo bolt. On both T100 and T160's, I like the front brake hose out of the master cylinder to mirror (roughly) the line of the clutch cable out of the clutch lever, irrespective of how high or low the handlebars are. At present, the T100 has Triumph pre-'73 US-market (aka 'Western'?) 'bars, one T160 has TSX 'bars and the other has Norman Hyde 'M'-bars. Also, hoses straight out of master cylinders allow you to swap between high and low 'bars far easier than if a banjo bolt's involved. :thumb

. Nevertheless, all three bikes use the standard Lucas hydraulic pressure switch. Triumph part-numbered it 60-7155 but original Lucas supplied it for innumerable contemporary British vehicles; if you Google "lucas 2sh34619", the world is awash with them.

. On the T100, I mounted the pressure switch in the standard brass 'T'-piece; again, Triumph part-numbered it 60-7176 but the piece itself is widely-available. I mounted the switch in the 'T'-piece as shown in in '79-on parts books' "Front Brake" diagrams, however:-

.. instead of the "Pipe - 'T' to middle lug", the hose to the caliper pokes through the lower yoke stanchion clamp eyebolt and the 'T'-piece is screwed directly on the end of the hose;

.. instead of the "Pipe - top lug to 'T'" into the horizontal inlet of the 'T', there's just another piece of braided hose from the top yoke hose bracket.

parts missing, including the top yoke to bottom yoke tube (60-4176),
60-4176 is the master-cylinder-to-top-yoke hose that you're discarding/replicating anyway, "top yoke to bottom yoke tube" is 60-4179. If you follow my advice about the pressure switch location, you won't need it anyway.

However, I did what I did on the T100 because it's (probably :)) unlikely I'll fit a second disc and, even if I did, hacking up bits of hose to reuse them and/or the end fittings is easy for me. Otoh, because you have to have ADR paperwork, if a second disc is a possibility in the future, say and I'll suggest a different way of doing the braided hoses now, that'll be easier to change for the second disc as-and-when.

what mechanism trips the rear brake light, and how would this be achieved using aftermarkets?
As standard, it's that Heath Robinson press-button switch by the rear brake lever, pressed/released by the bolt/locknut on the lever.

Your bike has the same rear brake parts as T160's. On mine, I've junked all the pipework between master cylinder and caliper for a single piece of braided hose; T160 with ally rear caliper has a banjo and bolt to fasten the hose to the caliper, T160 with original steel caliper has a 90-degree 'elbow' and male/male adapter to fasten the hose to the caliper because a banjo won't allow the chromed cover to be refitted.

First one I did, I left the standard rear brake lamp switch. Second one I did, I contrived a mounting for the aforementioned standard Lucas pressure switch based on what Les Williams made for the T160-based "Legends" he built. I'm not about to describe it here, it's convoluted and I don't think you can buy some of the bits I used. Nevertheless, when I can find the pictures of it, I'll post 'em.

When I return to the T160 without a rear brake pressure switch, I have in mind that I'll use a Goodridge 5099-03C ...



... with the aforementiond combined banjo bolt/pressure switch into the master cylinder.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#41 ·
Hi Rocky,

Your bike has the same rear brake parts as T160's. On mine, I've junked all the pipework between master cylinder and caliper for a single piece of braided hose;
T160 with original steel caliper has a 90-degree 'elbow' and male/male adapter to fasten the hose to the caliper because a banjo won't allow the chromed cover to be refitted.
As I own an original steel caliper it looks like I might need to add "Pipe from Caliper to Hose - 60-7007"
:confused: Uh-uh; if you used that, you'd also need 60-7028; as standard, the latter's a rubber pipe; if you're replacing them with braided, why wouldn't you have one piece of braided from master cylinder to caliper?

Aforementioned "male/male adapter" (Goodridge AN815-03C) ...



... screws into the caliper; "90-degree 'elbow'" (Goodridge 6091-03C) ...



... or (Goodridge 6090-03C) ...



... fits on end of hose and attaches to "male/male adapter".

Uh-uh; the "male/male adapter" you need must have a convex seat on both ends; both the caliper and whatever you screw to the protruding end of the "adapter" will both have concave seats.

reducing places where a hydraulic leak can occur.
If you get a leak with either the Goodridge or Venhill bits, you will have done something exceptionally stupid. :) The Goodridge stuff is so foolproof, it's escaped the attentions of the product-liability lawyers for at least three decades to my certain knowledge; Venhill are very unlikely to be any less foolproof.

Did you need to have a bracket to support the hose between the two ends?
No.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#9 · (Edited)
Hi Rod, I don't recall what you want your bike to look like. All the ideas will work well if assembled properly. It depends on how you want it to look.

I gather you want to keep the original front brake lever/switch assembly. The brake light is activated by a small plastic rod that reaches up inside of the housing near master cyl. The edge of the lever pushes in on the rod & it separates a contact blade. Pulling the lever allows blade to contact a tab that turns on light. The wiring runs up inside the rear half of the housing, then down into headlamp where all those connectors are. The stock switch normally works good & is trouble free.

Regarding brake hoses in practice the stock type work good. Stainless braded have less flex, but you can still lock the front wheel & modulate the stopping with either one. Braided give a firmer lever feel to my fingers, but while riding bike you just pull lever until you feel what you want. To me it gets down to looks.

Regarding the lower steel pipe to caliper, again how do you want it to look? The factory way with the steel pipe & the flex hose to lower triple clamp gives a very simple system that is self supporting & the flex hose hits nothing & needs no guides.

The stock type steel pipe from lower triple clamp to upper triple clamp works really good too. Takes little space & needs no special clamps or guides.

The top rubber hose to master cly. you have some options. Depending on your bars you can get a hose that goes 90deg or straight out the master cyl. Most all the Triumph parts places sell these.

Some sellers in USA have custom lengths as well.

I might expect AU sellers do also, plus many auto parts stores have a search in the parts book that shows what they sell. They may have one that would be good.

The rear brake light switch is similar in construction to the left foot switch in the photo. Of course it's on the right side. Look in 77 repair manual & they show it & how to adjust pedal.

My feeling is in the end it is what you want it to look like. The factory system is simple & trouble free. AU Triumph parts places sells all this stuff. Prices seem about what we pay in US figuring the exchange rate.
Don
 
#10 ·
Thanks Don.

I like economically priced simplicity with good performance.

The braided lines with black plastic wrapping seem a good look keeping with a vintage bike.

I'm not aiming for concours but just understated/uncluttered look with good function.

I like the idea of a single well supported hose with minimal parts.

Just need it to be ADR compliant and minimally priced.

Stainless steel ends also sound appealing.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I've just made a similar sounding mod to the (single) front disc brake assembly on my 1973 T120R. Luckily for me, Venhill are pretty local, so I was able to get everything from them - it's good kit :smile2:!

I selected parts from their 'Powerhouse Plus' range and just built a one-piece hose to my own spec (including s/s fittings and a hydraulic front brake light switch). You can choose the shape & materials for the fittings, the length of hose and the colour of the insulation sleeve. Here's the webpage ...

Venhill Powerhose Plus

I'm really pleased with my set-up now. It looks quite discreet (although not 'factory') and works extremely well (largely thanks to the cast iron disc) :grin2:.







Not sure about getting this approved over there in Oz, but it's another avenue to investigate I guess :wink2: .

Good luck!

A WORD OF WARNING!!!

The brake light switch with the 3/8" UNF thread that Venhill list on their website is described as having a 20mm threaded shaft. THIS IS NOT TRUE! It's 24mm long and that means that it has to be cut down in order to be able to clamp down on the banjo bolt. I complained to them about this and they amended the part number (to end in 24), but not the written description on the web page :frown2: ...

Link ...
 
#15 · (Edited)
I've just made a similar sounding mod to the (single) front disc brake assembly on my 1973 T120R. Luckily for me, Venhill are pretty local, so I was able to get everything from them - it's good kit :smile2:!

I selected parts from their 'Powerhouse Plus' range and just built a one-piece hose to my own spec (including s/s fittings and a hydraulic front brake light switch). You can choose the shape & materials for the fittings, the length of hose and the colour of the insulation sleeve. Here's the webpage ...

I'm really pleased with my set-up now. It looks quite discreet (although not 'factory') and works extremely well (largely thanks to the cast iron disc) :grin2:.

Not sure about getting this approved over there in Oz, but it's another avenue to investigate I guess :wink2: .

Good luck!

A WORD OF WARNING!!!

The brake light switch with the 3/8" UNF thread that Venhill list on their website is described as having a 20mm threaded shaft. THIS IS NOT TRUE! It's 24mm long and that means that it has to be cut down in order to be able to clamp down on the banjo bolt. I complained to them about this and they amended the part number (to end in 24), but not the written description on the web page :frown2: ...
Nice work Snapper.

What length & diameter hosing did you use for the front?

Did you use the 3/8 UNF CONVEX MALE ADAPTOR - STAINLESS to connect piping to the caliper?

Which Banjo did you use (can only see M10 to 1/8 BSP listed)?

Did you buy the black sleeve protection tubing & boots?

Were the hose brackets your creation?



Which wiring loom wires does switch mechanism connect to in the headlight shell?


What did you fit to your rear brake?

R R
 
#16 ·
The Venhill option is very appealing.

Stainless Banjo Bolt (3/8" unf) with Light Switch
45 deg Banjo Stainless.
Stainless Braided Pipe 1 metre with 1/8 BSP fittings.
Rigid Black Nylon cover tubing 1 metre with 2 boots.
1/8 BSP to 3/8 UNF Stainless adapter (for caliper).

= 40 Pounds or AUS$70.50 plus $15.86 shipping)

Only need suitable fitting brackets & ADR approval (????!!)
 
#19 · (Edited)
I've done some detective work regarding ADR Compliance.

I didn't want to be exploited due to lack of knowledge on this subject.

I've learned that Vic Roads (motor registration authority) have a network of authorised Vehicle Assessment & Certification parties.

They have the power to assess & certify vehicle modifications affecting ADR Compliance, on behalf of Vic Roads.


I tracked a list of authorised assessors and sent 6 of them my questions.



This is one of the replies:

If it's a suitable replacement part which is approved to FMVSS 106, it would be ok and won't need VASS approval.

Great news.

Basically Victorians can purchase FMVSS 106 certified brake hoses & fittings without issue as these are ADR acceptable and don't require specific ADR certification.


The veil has been removed.

This opens up many doors (shopping around).


I find British manufactured goods are usually of high quality, VAT free, & relatively inexpensive to ship.

The exception being the rogues who hide under the misleading statement "British produced".
They rely on victims who don't realize "British Produced" does not always = "British Made".
 
#20 · (Edited)
I've learned further about compliance of after market hydraulic brake hoses in relation to ADR (compliance to Australian Design Standards):

Provided the hoses are marked with the SAEJ1401 and/or DOT standard then a VASS won't be required.

The hose itself should be printed with this repeating information:

(eg "SAE J1401 and/or DOT 1/8 HL" and a date code)
 
#21 ·
Hi Snapper.

The final piece in the puzzle is that DOT, VSS, or SAE compliance actually appears or is printed on the hydraulic hoses for my motorcycle to remain street legal without an assessment and certification.

Is your hose printed with the compliance standard?
 
#29 ·
Just received a reply to my latest e-mail.

The Vic Roads authorized VASS tester has acknowledged that after market hoses are ADR acceptable if they have "Producer/Manufacturers Name, with SAE, &/or DOT markings" printed on them.

Green light for Venhill products.

For me this is ground breaking.

No more mystique and/or needing to deal with experts and their fees, when procuring hydraulic hoses.
 
#31 ·
I would assume that it won't, as the original was designed for the union of a flexible hose and rigid pipe?
i.e. the hose would fit through. but not with the connection.

you could fit a P clip, either to the original bolt, or remove that bolt and fit another that matches the other side?(with P clip)
or cut the original so that the hose clips into it
 
#32 ·
Thanks Dave.

Maybe, as you've indicated, make drill the eyelet hole so the hose ends can fit through.

But somehow I'm thinking that the hose needs to have a rubber grommet in place to eliminate wear.

So maybe a dedicated clamp that can fit off the eyelet bolt?
 
#39 ·
I did the same as Stuart
I have an underslung caliper

I had the caliper boots tapped to accept screws, then removed the S pipe from the caliper.
Now I have a stainless hose straight from my rer cylinder to caliper.

I used a dremel to remove some metal from a caliper cover so it fits
 
#40 · (Edited)
I did the same as Stuart
I have an underslung caliper

I had the caliper boots tapped to accept screws, then removed the S pipe from the caliper.
Now I have a stainless hose straight from my rer cylinder to caliper.

I used a dremel to remove some metal from a caliper cover so it fits
Thanks Dave.

Rather than tapping out the caliper, I was planning on using this stainless steel part.

http://www.venhill.co.uk/Hoses_-_Co...SP_WITH_3-8_UNF_CONVEX_-_STAINLESS_STEEL.html

Depends on the hose fit in relation to the chrome caliper cover as Stuart indicated an incompatibility.

If removing some metal can do the job, I'd prefer the simplicity of a single hose, reducing places where a hydraulic leak can occur.

It is a short hose run.
Did you need to have a bracket to support the hose between the two ends?
 
#47 ·
Not really a part of this thread, but a change to Ferrodo Platinum pads transformed action of my Trident front brake.
I still use original disc and the brake is finally working properly, with good feel and power.
It consist of chinese copy of Honda Goldwing front master ( 14 mm ), original arrays of steel and rubber lines, original caliper and disc.
I also decided to change original lines to Venhill Power Plus during the winter.
 
#49 ·
Hi,

Ferrodo Platinum pads transformed action of my Trident front brake.
From a recent TOL thread, when more than one pair of pads is needed, search out a Mini Cooper parts supplier for "green"* pads. Apparently, cheaper than EBC, Ferodo, etc. and you get two pairs of pads for your money. :thumb

The steel calipers are basically pre-'S' (1062 aka 1100 engine) off-side front.

Hth.

Regards,

* I believe that isn't eco "green"...
 
#58 · (Edited)
If the more direct after market braided steel hydraulic hose is used inplace of the stock arrangement, would the lower Pipe Support Bracket (83-7064) be discarded?

Would it be wise to replace the Pipe Support Bracket with some kind of hose fixing which is large enough to accommodate the new hose and can be secured to the same point via bolt (14-0103) & washer (60-2427)?


http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/pb-tri-1976-77-T140 99-2257R.pdf

Page 56.

thanks Marc
 
#59 · (Edited)
Hi,

If the more direct after market braided steel hydraulic hose is used inplace of the stock arrangement, would the lower Pipe Support Bracket (83-7064) be discarded?

Would it be wise to replace the Pipe Support Bracket with some kind of hose fixing which is large enough to accommodate the new hose and can be secured to the same point via bolt (14-0103) & washer (60-2427)?
Depends ...?

As I like the pressure switch take-off mounted on the lower yoke eyebolt, ime the "Pipe Support Bracket" is required only if replicating the original change from flexible hose to 'hard line' into the caliper; otoh, if fitting one length of braided hose from the eyebolt to to the caliper, if the braided hose isn't ridiculously-long, ime the "Pipe Support Bracket" isn't required.

Otoh, you're still planning to use one long single braided hose all the way from master cylinder to caliper? If so, earlier in the thread, "Dave M" advised orientating the standard stanchion-clamping eyebolt in the lower yoke so the eye was vertical and just bolting a 'P'-clamp around the hose to the eye. If you do that, as above, I can't see that you'll need to attach the hose to the fender-slider joint?

Only if you don't restrain the hose by the lower yoke do I think it would be wise to restrain it by the fender-slider joint.

Btw, if Colin's contemplating a similar brake hose change, bear in mind he'd need to swap the 83-5150 "Pipe Support Bracket" for another 83-5151.

Hth.

Regards,
 
#64 ·
Hi all,

Just found this thread.

Looking at upgrading the front brakes on my 1973 T140V.
Had to use them big time a while ago and whilst the rear locked up, the front seemed to do bugger all. Managed to keep everything upright after a car did a sudden u-turn in front of me.

I noticed Rod is in Melbourne (me too), how did you go with your brakes and getting them to meet ADR?

Cheers.
 
#65 · (Edited)
The ADR issue turned out to be over blown.

If your kit involves custom made hoses then you need written certification.


But I'm planning to use Venhill Powerhose Plus System.

Once my bike is rebuilt and I can measure exact hose lengths I'll place my order.

You can select from hoses, hose sleeves (to keep in sympathy with restoration), banjos, UNF adapters, pressure switch if required.
Hoses come in 25 mm increments.

http://www.venhill.co.uk/Home

An engineer who deals with ADR compliance advised that as long as the hoses are inscribed with either/or both "TUV" & "DOT" compliant by the manufacturer, then you don't have an issue.


The Calipers, Rotors, & Master Cylinders are all standard or original so there's no ADR issue there.

The improvements being, new seals, pads, stainless pistons both in Calipers & Master Cylinders, and Rotor Discs machined after having the chrome surface stripped.
 
#68 ·
Thanks Andy.

I've spotted two possible options.

AN4 Clamps for 11 mm hose ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8pcs-AN-...Clamp-Fitting-Adapter-Bracket-BK/332039280716 ) and

AN6 Clamps for 13.4 mm hose ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8PC-AN-6...mp-Fitting-Adapter-Bracket-Black/292069299001 )


Do you think to go for the 11 mm type and don't fully tighten?

I can use these Clamps, as you have, secured to the eyebolt which is associated with the bottom fork plate and

Use one of these http://www.venhill.co.uk/Hoses_-_Co...2_CUSHIONED_HOSE_CLAMPS-1-4__FOR_-3_HOSE.html via a flat bar coming off the fork leg where the fender bridge is fixed.


Also what diameter crush copper washers did you need and where were these fitted?


Thanks immensely.

R R
 
#69 ·
The clamps are made up of two C-section, solid aluminium parts and the rubber sleeves are very dense. I don't think that you would be able to force the 11mm clamp to go over the rubber at all and it certainly wouldn't tighten down properly :| . My suggestion would be to go for the larger (AN6) clamp and use a couple of wraps of black insulation tape around the rubber sleeve. On my bike, I have the larger clamps (without any tape wrapped round them) and the rubber sleeve is very slightly loose - the clamps are only there to stop the hose from flapping around after all :wink2: .

As for the copper washers, I'm afraid that I really can't remember now :| . They did come from Venhill though, so they would either have been 8mm or 10mm, I guess. Sorry!
 
#71 · (Edited)
Thanks again Andy.

Finally, on my machine, given that the thread in both the front & rear Hydraulic Master Cylinders is the same (UNF 3/8-24):

Which Venhill part would you select in order to then screw on the Powerhose Plus pipe to the rear Master Cylinder?

Is it the same part as the Adapter which will be used on the Caliper?


The front Master Cylinder takes: Pressure Switch Hose http://www.venhill.co.uk/Hoses_-_Co..._BANJO_BOLT_3-8_UNF-24_WITH_LIGHT_SWITCH.html and the Banjo http://www.venhill.co.uk/Line_Build...LS_M10_45DEG_+_20DEG_LEFT_BEND_STAINLESS.html

Given there won't be pressure switch on the rear Master Cylinder, would I select the 3/8 UNF Convex Adapter 3/60375AS Adapter? http://www.venhill.co.uk/Hoses_-_Co...SP_WITH_3-8_UNF_CONVEX_-_STAINLESS_STEEL.html
 
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