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Fair value - 67 T120R and 66 TT

9K views 80 replies 16 participants last post by  swamp2 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings, I could use a little help here. A friend of mine was named co-executor of a buddies estate. The guy had 3 bikes including 2 Triumphs. He's obligated to get "fair value" for the bikes "as is" and has asked for my help trying to establish as much.

Bike #1: 67 T120R
Numbers match - DU 48xxx, original paint in faded/dinged up shape, pretty much stock except handlebars, shorty mufflers, back rest. Chrome in bad condition. Proper monoblocs (389/95). Last on road 2000ish. Kicks over. All rubber is rotten. Original seat with a variety of small tears. IIRC odometer reads ~10,300. Really nasty smelling gas in tank. The guys 3rd bike was a '92 Sportster 883 so I imagine that became his regular rider from that point on, this Bonnie probably didn't get much use after that.

Bike #2: 66 T120TT
Numbers match. Beautiful restoration by Tim Bardsley/"Mostly British Motocycles" back in '98. We think it's been sitting in the guys living room ever since then, no evidence of it being run since then. Does kick over.

There should be valid paperwork (transferrable NYS registration) for these but it is tied up with the estate so there may be some drama.

Mecum Las Vegas last month had 4 TT's - prices ranged from 6750-12000, avg 9750. A year prior they had 3 - prices were higher - avg 15800 (are classic bike prices really dropping that much?). Anyway there's some basis for recent pricing to use there. Having a harder time on the T120R... seems like perfect restos are in the 9-12 range. Clean mostly stock riders ~ 5-6ish? But cosmetically rough, non-running - but mostly original bikes... not so sure.

Anyway, opinions are welcomed. I'm somewhat interested in the T120R - have resurrected many bikes like this - so I'm a little biased here - he'd welcome a "reasonable" offer from me just to get one headache behind him... but I'm actively trying to downsize my collection so my interest level only goes so far...

Thanks for any thoughts...
Steve
 
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#3 ·
Both highly desirable bikes, the TT should get close to market value, minus a little for estate/title hassle, so say $10/12000. The 67 Bonny I'd have to see. Owners of old rusty restorable bikes tend to use restored value as their price guide, which as you know is total BS. Without seeing it , working from your description and knowing how much will get put into a decent resto, I'll say $2000, just due to desirability.
 
#6 ·
:Need pics


By only using Vegas auction prices you will be raising the average price. For some reason they are higher than others. Check prices for bikes at Daytona or Mid-Ohio they will be lower.


Get the guy to tell YOU what he considers reasonable. Fair Value(or Fair Market Value) & Reasonable Offer are both fluid terms depending on condition, location, time of year, attitude of seller/buyer, AND ALLEGED EXPERTS OPINIONS.


My opinion is if you want it make what you consider a fair offer. If you don't get it walk away.


By the way Welcome to the Dark Side:Mexican wave


K
 
#7 · (Edited)
Oh, I've lived on the dark side for a long while...

Anyway, since my friend came to me looking for help on the value, I'd be a pretty crappy friend if I gave him a low offer and tried to convince him it was fair. That's the kind of thing that can get him into trouble with the heirs of the estate. In any case, I had told him I know would give $2k for the '67, but really wasn't sure how close that was to "fair".

What does one assume for the approximate restoration costs for one of these these days? I saw all the receipts for the '66 - it was ~ $4,500 back in '98. I like working on bikes and generally do most everything myself, but was just curious...

Hopefully these pix come across, not very good but it's all I've got right now... The TT is perfect, the 120R is worse in real life than in the pix.

Steve
 

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#16 ·
Steve :Wave


I will not say what is fair. I do not know:hmmthink ( Truth be told NO ONE OUT HERE KNOWS EITHER). :dunnoWhat is fair is when you two agree on a value. As I said before get your friend to tell you what is reasonable. If you agree and want the bike purchase it ,if not walk away. As far as the heirs and your friend just because they think the bike is worth $XXXX doe not mean it is worth $XXXX. Any item is only worth what party A is willing to pay party B for the item. :doublethumb


Last bike I did a full on was in '84 Did ALL THE WORK myself and spent about $4000 (1979-84 DOLLARS) . :cry


My friend your money your choice YOU have to make the decision.
Do not be a stranger out here.




K:geezer
 
#8 ·
Like many things it is the quality of a restoration that brings the money. At first glance at the TT you can already see it has the wrong guards fitted. That would immediately have me wandering how much else would need to be corrected to make it right and consequently the value goes down.

Rod
 
#9 ·
Sight unseen analysis:

Bike #1: 67 T120R:
Parts bike. Say 2k if runs. Will take too much to restore, where IMO, the '69 is more desirable is the 120 series. Was back then as is now.

Bike #2: 66 T120TT:
Numbers match. Beautiful restoration is in the teens. Has to be 100 point bike in and out or just another TT under 10k.

"Mecum Las Vegas last month had 4 TT's - prices ranged from 6750-12000, avg 9750..." and there you go."
Depends on the restore/originals/etc.; that cycles in each year.

"A year prior they had 3 - prices were higher - avg 15800 (are classic bike prices really dropping that much?)."
Ah, the public is fickle. Trend is trend. Demand one year over the other, restore quality, who knows?

"Anyway there's some basis for recent pricing to use there. Having a harder time on the T120R... seems like perfect restos are in the 9-12 range."
I'm sure you'd find a 100 point restore?... more like high 90's but forget 100p. Cosmetically replica looking than original being powercoated, rechromed, and you'll never get your money back getting it close to those points so it's more or less a parts bike. Kept unrestored is how you described that bike is either a bin bike or a runner with the carbs cleaned, fresh condensers, a working advancer, and a tuneup. If it was never dropped, was bone stock, faded, tolerable rust, slight dings means patina, a low miler sitter, then yes; big bucks without putting a dime in it.

"Clean mostly stock riders ~ 5-6ish?"
Those are more pleasantly worn out runners and who knows how many hands it went thru with buggered nut and head bolts, torx screw heads, etc.

"But cosmetically rough, non-running - but mostly original bikes... not so sure."
Like I said, handlebars and cut wires, drilling or modding stock components, parts that may take time to find if no longer available sort of completes or is incomplete, the bike is more you pick parts off it for the better more complete 120. You know the drill if you collect bikes to restore.

"he'd welcome a "reasonable" offer from me just to get one headache behind him..."
The reasonable thing to do is bring a compression tester with you, a plug tool, a can of carb gunk to un-stick the slides and needle jet in the goo. 160 and over needing a decoking = 2k. Under 100psi under 1k = Parts bike. Not worth restoring the engine we add up the parts/labor/machining, etc. Also, that's British Standard tools and sockets to preserve the hardware. How many hands did "butcher the amateur fiddlefukwit" is the rocker adjust lock nut looking like? Yeah, I'm going to pay bank for that crapissoid?
 
#10 ·
Sight seen:

T120:
I'd say that is more like 3k compression good or not. Not what I'd call a bin bike. Not too much from the parts bike being needed. Push my thumb under the tank so the rust is eaten thru the tank with a wet tank gone dry. Pop the gas cap to see how much rust or he left it dry and is clean looking.

TT120:
That's more a 'reserve' as is kind of I wouldn't touch it but fill the tires up, pay the fee in, the 9% out 'if sold' past 10K being your bottom price and let the market pay that 9% commission plus entry fee. Or sell both as a lot sale package, run the same 'reserve not met' game. Those both look very bankable.

To me that T120 is a working day window I dip those carbs in vinegar, loosen the advancer, set the valves (now check compress), the points, the sync and is running that day... if it has compression to start. See the cashier on your way out LOL
 
#12 ·
The last 1967 650 (TR6C) I bought in rotten condition but matching numbers and clear title was $1425 delivered from TX to VA -- that was in 2013

The last 1971 650 (T120R) I bought was a daily rider with matching numbers, a clear title, and an electrical problem which I picked up locally was $1850 -- that was 2014 (1968-1970 is more desirable to me whether 500 or 650, 1967 is more desirable to me than 71+ but less than 68 or 69).

The last 1967 T100C I bought in baskets but all there with matching numbers and a clear title including shipping was $1700.

So, at least to me, the T120 is worth about $2000 delivered as long as it is matching numbers, has a clear title and seems like it can run.

They often go for more than that on eBay, but the cost of selling there jacks up the price quite a bit so I try to find them elsewhere.
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the comments far. All along I was sorta figuring 2-3k for the T120R, but that's enough of a difference in range that my interest level inversely correlates.

Re: the Sportster... There's about a million Evo 883 sportsters, low milage and clean locally at any time. Asking prices generally 3-3.5k. So given this "as is" - you can't hear it run, probably needs at a minimum - battery, fresh rubber, carb cleaning - that has to turn off a large % of the possible buying public so I'd guess would degrade the value by a grand... I don't care much about that bike anyway, but again - any opinions are appreciated.

And just to clarify, I guess when I've referred to "perfect" restorations, I wasn't necessarily referring to 100 point bikes. I don't really care about that - although I accept some do and maybe that is a big swinger in price. I just meant bikes that have obviously been completely gone through and cosmetically/mechanically rejuvenated at considerable expense/effort.

Steve
 
#15 ·
To me, a bike that seems fairly original and together is worth more than a basket case because the bc will always have parts missing, especially the little stuff that drives you nuts. Also, Now, Today, 2015, Go Find A '63 - '70 that's all there. It's a find. That doesn't mean you'll find many people outside of a Triumph forum able to make one into a decent reliable bike resembling what it once was. To most everyone else it's an old Bike that doesn't run and is hard to buy parts for. If it's cheap enough a kid will buy it and ruin it trying to bob it. Later you'll see it for sale as a basket case , of course with half the original parts missing.
 
#17 ·
Yeah, I hear you. The problem is my friend has no real context to say what he thinks is reasonable. I guess the way to truly test what is fair is to stick it out on the market (ebay?) and see what people are willing to pay for it. Put a high reserve on it, see what the bidding gets up to, and then decide if I want to go over. I just don't want to screw around with it since there's not likely anything in it for me under those conditions - and my friend's not particularly computer/ebay savvy and (I think) looking for me to demonstrate integrity in the process. That's why I'm looking for opinions from folks who are tuned in to the product & market.

I have a pretty nice stock 70 Bonnie already. Wasn't all that easy to put back together, took a while to accumulate the parts - but ended up with mostly appropriate pieces in the end (including a pair of Clear Hooters! woo!). I look at this 67 and it looks pretty easy to reconstruct. But as noted I've never been hung up on 100 pt restos - I like to have a bike that's readily identifiable for the year/model and reliable (at least predictable...) but I'm not afraid to ride. If I got this bike, I'd probably clean it up but leave original paint in place, replace all the rubber, get it running, put a new seat cover on it, put some stock style mufflers and bars on it and use it. I have a 69-70 front wheel with nice chrome that'll go right on. Anyway, it clearly deserves to be back on the road.

But it's kinda redundant for me. Already have the 70, have a 75 Trident and a 61 T110 rat bike. And that's just the vintage Triumphs...

Re: the sportster... I had a 75 and found it sorta charming in a primitive, agricultural kind of way... And I do LOVE Buell's - all the good character of a sportster with a lot more performance and handling thrown in. But there's nothing all that interesting about a mostly stock 883 to me...

Toying with the idea of a package offer (maybe 4500?) but with the intention of getting the Sportster running and flipping it to make a little bit. And hanging on to the bonnie...

Decisions, decisions...

Thanks for the commentary in any case. It's nice to have a bike related distraction on a frigid upstate NY day...

Steve
 
#18 ·
My friend your second sentence says it all time to walk on by unless you have a bottomless wallet. Have good evening thinking its about time to go dig out a country joe & the fish album or maybe commander cody.


.


K:rockin
 
#19 · (Edited)
Being a buyer, seller, restorer, collector, and forum moderator, I have MANY angles to consider.

I like to think along the lines of: "if I had a huge pile of play money, how much would I pay?" In order to be as fair as possible.

Personally, if they were mine, I wouldn't sell for less than $5K for the 67 and $10K for the 66.

I can review the write-ups provided in the next couple of days, and look closer at the numbers, then provide valuations on my Born Again Bikes letterhead, if he wants.

Being that I spent the last of my play money on an original '59 Bonnie a couple of weeks ago, and I already own a '66 and '67, I can assure you I have no interest in either bike, and will be complete impartial.
 
#20 ·
Well, I guess in the end I'm just trying to get an idea for him of what a population (of more than 1 person) of appropriately educated people are willing to pay for them and consequently enable him to wrap up a transaction quickly. He's trying to get the estate closed out within a month. Doesn't really want to hold out for the 1 person out there somewhere who might pay max $ for it if it takes months of searching, dealing with auctions, etc to find that person. These are just but 2 pieces of decades worth of stuff he has to get rid of in a "responsible" fashion. On the '66, he thinks he has an offer of 10k for it from the guy who originally owned it. I've told him -based on the auction results I've reviewed and generally reinforced on comments on this forum so far, that seems like a reasonable offer. But 5k for the 67, I don't know... I certainly wouldn't want to tell him that, setting expectations he should hold out for that kind of figure. If you or somebody you know is willing to pay 5k for it, great -I'll be happy to put you in touch. But saying if it was yours you wouldn't sell it for less than that, well... I don't think that's the same question that's being answered. And I don't think you were saying it was...

The idea is to get rid of this before it ends up in an estate sale with the furniture and other odds and ends left in the house. Should easily be able to do better than that would bring.

Anyway, with that in mind, I certainly do appreciate you sharing your expertise.

Thanks,
Steve
 
#21 · (Edited)
Swamp2, I know what you mean. My brother passed away last April and left 14 car and truck projects and 4 motorcycles. Mom had to dispose of everything and she made it clear it was not a fun or quick process. Everything was to be liquidated except for the motorcycles that were mine by previous agreement with my deceased bother. This included an 82Ferrari Mondial, 69 Jaguar XKE,85 BMW 540i,65 Lotus Elan, 3 Chrysler LeBaron's, a 65 Corsair with a Toronado V8 in the back, 3 Alfa Romeo GTV's, A 65 Alpine GT, and a 61 Alfa Guiletta. Mom ultimately made a decision based on what my brother had paid for each vehicle and valued them with appreciation for them over 30 years, even as basket cases and most not running she had someone from Beverley Hills Car Club.com come and made an offer for even more than what she wanted. They pieced them back together from the parts that came with them and flipped them all within 3 weeks.The Norton Kawasaki I inherited as one of the main bikes my brother and I had the deal on, deal was however went first got the others motorcycles, was actually purchased from another estate sale where he bought the KawaTon, a Kawasaki frame, a Kimtab wheel, and some books and manuals from the estate sale for $433. I have the receipts with the paperwork on the bike. I think Marsh's price estimate is quite conservative and Pauls are on the other end, both I'm sure from different circumstances. I think somewhere in-between is what they would be worth to me. Do the EBay list with a high reserve like mentioned, you'll get a good indication of what people are willing to spend right now. Compare that with what you think and go from there. If you value it too high you will end up like I did on a Civic I just sold and had to put up with so many lowball scumbags that I was glad when it sold and vowed I'll never sell another car and was glad I wasn't involved with selling my brothers cars because I knew he wouldn't be happy and there were a couple I wanted to keep but wasn't in a position to acquire them. I'm happy with the bikes.
 
#23 ·
Well, as I said, that's from a description, sight unseen, offered to a person who WANTS it to be gone. It's not top dollar, it's not ripping someone off. Estates need to be settled. I think Brit bike lovers tend to overvalue because they love the bikes. I'm talking a price range I see about 5-10 times a year, fairly complete in bad shape. Those bikes are a lot of time and money from a nice running fairly original bike.
 
#27 ·
Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to lowball this thing. If I was I wouldn't be asking a bunch of brit bike enthusiasts for opinions. Most my motorcycling friends wouldn't give $500 for this. Anyway, if the 67 really should be more than $2k for a fair price, well I could probably go up a little. But not to 3k for sure. I've actually been trying to scale back my bike pile, if nothing else to make sure my family doesn't get stuck with the scenario 01marc conveyed above. I had over 35 a few years ago, and have "whittled" it down to 13ish. But the last couple years, with every one that I get rid of, another one lands in my garage. I still love the old bikes and working on them. I sorta don't want this but I sorta do...

Steve
 
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