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'74 Trident - in parts

13K views 72 replies 15 participants last post by  Palehorse 
#1 ·
Hi, I'm new to the forums, I joined after buying a '74 Trident, as the title says, in parts.

The ad was on a used site here in Victoria BC and while it mentioned that the engine was disassembled, it didn't mention that actually everything is disassembled. I don't believe one part is connected to another part.

The backstory is that an older fellow was collecting the parts to do up his bike nice and fell into poor health. He sold off the bike to another guy who decided not to pursue it, now I know why. I just picked up the parts from him today.

Everything from rebuild kits for the carburetors to the badges for the tank and on. All in labelled bags ready to go back together.

I've spoken to a couple guys who work with these bikes, and they both agreed that assembling the parts is like lego for adults. I'm not crazy enough to think it's that easy...and I'm a complete novice.

I may have gotten in over my head.


I'm hopeful I can get some of the great advice I see on this forum thrown my way, I've been reading Jonkster's thread and you guys really know your stuff.

For now I had considered whether to get some more finishing done, like stripping and painting the frame. It's not in too bad a shape, mount points and bolt holes are bare metal the rest is black.

One fender is chromed the other not, the tank is bare metal ready for paint...

I'll keep adding to this thread as I go if anyone's interested, but it will be slow going. I'm going to need to read a ton and figure out my best course before diving in.

Thanks for reading!
 

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#2 ·
I've been reading Jonkster's thread and you guys really know your stuff.
:eek:

Not me Palehorse! I am not that much further down the road than you.

Anything I know about these things I picked up from trawling through this forum and Britbike, asking questions here and reading.

There are a number of people here who do know their stuff though so I would encourage you to ask questions.

My 2c worth of tips would be:

1. get hold of a factory parts book and workshop manual - these will be indispensable - you will go nowhere without them - maybe have a look at http://www.classicbike.biz/triumph/triumph.htm

2. take your time - Jonkster's law of time estimation for working on motorcycles is: always at least double your estimated time, (even if you are taking into account Jonkster's law of time estimation ;)).

Your project will take a long time but that is a positive - you are embarking on a journey that will be rewarding and will last a while :)

3. Take photos and post them when asking questions as it often both helps people like me understand what you are saying and may help others who follow looking for similar information.

4. Ask dumb questions.

5. Be patient - if it doesn't fit or make sense, experiment a little first or step back and think about things a while.

6. There are some very experienced people here but sometimes they will give contradictory advice. If that happens, chew on it a while and make up your own mind who's advice to follow.

7. Don't be worried you are in over your head. A lot of the fun is learning and working out what you need to know and how to do it and building up your own bank of experience. If you are patient, reasonably happy using tools and willing to ask questions it'll be happen.

Go for it! :D
 
#3 ·
Many people say ( never worked on one) that tridents are a different kettle of fish compared to the twins.
I'd say that a competent mechanic can reassemble a twin, a triple may be harder, and worth finding an experienced guru?

If the relationship is friendly, could you spend some time with a parts book and the pile of bits to check that the bits are all there?
I bought a different bike that was completely disassembles down to ball bearings and unlabelled. I know them enough to assess the general state of the pile of bites and bought it, but then when back at base sat with a print out and loads of poly bags. I picked up a piece, looked at it and ticked it off the parts book. That's the only way to check if it is all there

It doesn't mean that all the parts are serviceable.
 
#4 ·
The way I`d tackle this is firstly sort out the frame.
As its OIF, blasting it is not advisable, unless all oilways are very carefully sealed and the yoke hole.
Check the swinging arm, as per the manual.

Make a list of fasteners at each stage from the parts manual.

Then assemble the front forks, replacing any parts if neccessary.
You will need some fork oil..see book.
Rear suspension units.

Wheels, check bearings, spindles, tyres, etc.
Assemble the rolling chassis.

Then you can start on the brakes, tinware, lights, etc.

Meanwhile, in the time needed for waiting for parts, clean carbs, polish cases and check chains.
Leave the engine and transmission til last.
 
#8 ·
I knew I came to the right place. :D

Jonkster, your advice is well taken. The bike parts came with manuals for '73, '74' and '75 tridents a couple different parts manuals and an owner's manual for '69 - '75. It also came with snippings from magazines that the guy who pulled it all together had come across in his time, and there are hand written notes throughout. I will definitely be taking pictures, I doubt I'll have anything this ambitious and cool come across my workbench again.
@DAVE M - You hit my next step on the head. I'm going to start pulling these boxes apart and checking off what's in there against the parts manuals. See if there's anything missing, see what is serviceable/not.
@Caulky - I had planned on diving into the engine first, but you're advising the opposite, is there an advantage to waiting on the engine?

Thanks all, keep it coming!

One thing I know that is missing from the build is mufflers, so that's something I'll have to decide on/source when the time is right.
 
#9 ·
"Caulky - I had planned on diving into the engine first, but you're advising the opposite, is there an advantage to waiting on the engine? "
Only in that you will need some special Triumph tools and some sort of apparatus for holding the engine steady.
You can probably get away without for the bike bits, but you will need a centre stand or a jack.
 
#11 ·
T150 build

It's very handy to have a rolling frame that can be moved around. I was able to mount the complete engine into the frame. Some lean the frame over on top of the engine to mount it. Building a triple Triumph engine by yourself with no experience is extremely difficult. Many things must be assembled in a specific order that is not logical or obvious. Assembling the rolling frame is much easier and common to other Triumphs.
The T150 engine has 7 castings including the gearbox. Gearboxes are similar to twins with the clutch being completely different. It's easier to assemble the gears with the gearbox on its side or angled back with gravity helping. Carbs are much more difficult to assemble and synchronize. Cylinder heads are similar to twins with a little more tendency to be hard on valve guides. Assemble the middle connecting rod to the crank by putting the cap on from the bottom. On a twin, the pistons rise and fall together. The pistons with rings are easy to fit in the barrels with the rods attached to the crank. A triple is very unhandy to do the same as pistons are staggered 120 degrees. You will need a lot of tools and a big workbench. Bob
 
#15 ·
Hi,

On a twin, the pistons rise and fall together. The pistons with rings are easy to fit in the barrels with the rods attached to the crank. A triple is very unhandy to do the same as pistons are staggered 120 degrees.
Turn a triple's crankshaft 'til the pistons're at three different heights above the crankcase, with the middle one the highest. With two hands, lower the block over the highest piston, using your third hand to feed the rings into the bore and remove the clamp from around the conrod. Then do the second-highest one and then the lowest one. As an insurer's tv ad. puppet here says, "Seemples". >:)

Hth.

Regards,
 
#12 ·
One rule I have with triples is every thing, from crankshaft to camshaft, must rotate freely when the cases are buttoned up. If something doesn't turn freely this is one engine where it will NOT "break-in" as you ride it. It will most certainly break!

The other trap that can bite you hard, is having the crankshaft main journals ground and not verifying before assembly that the two center mains run absolutely true with the fixed mains at each end. You would assume that they would be ground it that way, but it is an assumption you must not make!!!

Mount the crankshaft on "V" blocks and indicate the two center mains. There should be zero run out! If you don't understand what I am saying please say so and I will try to make it clearer.

Other than stuffing the pistons into the bore (you will need some appropriate ring clamps and a friend - (if he has three hands it would be helpful), the top end is straight forward and pretty simple to learn. Just make sure that you put sealant around the oil dowels that pass oil out of the top end into the cylinder.

Some things are not obvious. The cylinder sleeves should stick up above the cylinder head gasket surface if you expect the head gasket to seal. Do not allow anyone to surface the top of the sleeves even with the head gasket surface! He is just making your life hell and while he makes another boat payment.

The triple primary chain sprockets MUST be aligned to less than .010" misalignment. There is a tool that allows you to do this which I am sure someone will lend you.
John
 
#13 ·
Palehorse, I love that handle, and first of all welcome to the asylum.

No budgetary constraints were mentioned and the best advice I can offer is to have an experienced and well qualified engine builder do up the engine. Yes it's a romantic thought to do it all your self, kinda like re-modeling a house. But, and admittedly you have no experience. Your initial plunge into engine building would be certainly a doable challenge on a single or twin but a triple is too specialized for your newb status IMHO. You'll have plenty to do with the rest of the bike and they could be done in tandem shortening the time. A smart man acknowledges his short comings.

If you insist on going down this road so be it. I'm pretty sure this community will support you, I certainly will. Stuart has good advice to seek out the triples forum.

As a final thought, double the time and budget you have anticipated. And that's conservative.


Cheers,

td
 
#14 · (Edited)
Thanks for the words of wisdom. I remember hearing many years ago that triples were very hard to work on. I may indeed be over my head. For now I'm going to catalog the parts and find out what I do and don't have. I've had a few friends step forward with offers of help, so if there's anyone in there who has experience maybe I can bow to them.

To further immerse myself in the reality of how much I've bitten off, can anyone give a quick description of why triples are so difficult? Or is even that too hard to describe for a newb?

@coloradobob said "Many things must be assembled in a specific order that is not logical or obvious."

That's a pretty good description of why they're difficult...

@johntioc said "The other trap that can bite you hard, is having the crankshaft main journals ground and not verifying before assembly that the two center mains run absolutely true with the fixed mains at each end. You would assume that they would be ground it that way, but it is an assumption you must not make!!!

Mount the crankshaft on "V" blocks and indicate the two center mains. There should be zero run out! If you don't understand what I am saying please say so and I will try to make it clearer."

Okay after some research I see what this is. I will definitely check that first thing before working on the crankshaft, thanks! Believe it or not I got the rest of what you said and that is valuable advice.

@Tiger Dale Budgetary constraints are an issue for now as I tapped myself out purchasing the parts (not a bike yet) and setting myself up to start in on the project. I definitely couldn't afford to pay anyone to build the engine for me, but I'm also aware of my short comings, so if it gets too overwhelming I'll have to put it aside to build up capital again. At the very least I am confident I can work on the frame assembly.

I'm also a bit stubborn with 'puzzles' and so I will give it my very best before throwing in the towel. I appreciate all of the advice, I really do.


Tonight I picked up the rest of the parts and registered the bike in my name, so it's officially mine...for what it's worth. The fellow I bought it from mentioned that he had someone from England phone him about it, so I know I've got something special on my hands. :D
 
#17 ·
Well I started pulling parts last night to do a quick overview and found my first 'this ain't right' part. The clutch housing has a piece broken off of it. I'm not sure why it was kept, the missing piece is quite large. Looking at pictures of other housings online I can see some with cracks in the same place so it is probably a common break?

I also found that there are two timing covers, both of them banged up, one of them welded and the other with cracks.

This is the start of the budget doubling Tiger Dale mentioned. Before I go down the rabbit hole any further I need to know what the heck I'm dealing with.

The only bright spot is that there truly are quite a lot of new parts. Quite a lot.
 
#18 ·
The heart of this engine is the crank assembly. If reworking or grinding required, specialist procedures need to be followed by technicians/engineers who have PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE on THESE cranks.

A common mistake by owners is to just send the crank to auto engineers. WRONG ! There have been cases where crank failure has destroyed engines due to incorrect grinding techniques. By that I mean not including the correct stress relieving radius on big end & main journals, etc.

Trying to locate a replacement crank is like mission impossible now. And should you find one you'd better have deep pockets.

So, first up on the engine rebuild is...........get that crank checked & measured and run out tested by someone who knows them inside out.
 
#20 ·
You need to read a lot.
I started reading a year before I bought a bike and 3 years later am still learning.
Points risen by johntioc and Rev about the crank assembly are the most important for this engine.
In reality if you don't have any experience with British classic bikes every step has to be discussed first and executed later.
You can go to TOL and start reading now.
 
#21 ·
Looks like you're getting there. Has it been a slow two years? (lots of interruptions) or was it steady throughout?

Can you list any custom or special tools you needed to get that far?

I've already wandered over to TOL to start reading, there is a lot to take in of course. The good thing is that I'm really in no hurry and so if I need to read and read to get there I can do that.

What would you say was the hardest part of the job so far? All of it? haha.

Thanks for the pics, looks great!
 
#22 ·
Normally the triumph workshop manual lists all the specialist tools needed.
Often, you can do without about half of them, if you joined TOMCC they (in the uk) run a tool loan scheme.
The tools can be invaluable, or just make a hard job easier. You need to research each one.

The manual assumes that you have a decent set of imperial tools
Buy the best that you can, but often they can be picked up at autojumbles very cheaply if you are not worried by non matching sets in natty plastic cases. Often two sets of spanner a is handy, and buy random ones that you find so that you can bend them or modify if an awkward situation comes up
 
#23 ·
Yes, it was very slow 2 years - mainly because my big plan with selling my 84 Suzuki GS 1150 didn't work and Suzuki is still here.
So money was always tight.
But I got very lucky otherwise, I bought this bike from a guy who has more than 10 of them and all factory tools available.
So if I have a problem I just borrow a tool from him. My impression is that engine cases are very delicate and by using unproper tools it's easy to mangle them. The most important were :
- camshaft and crankshaft pinion extractors,
- valve removal tool,
- engine and gearbox sprocket extractors,
- shock absorber and clutch extractor,
- clutch hub holding tool.

But because your engine is already in pieces you don't need most of them.
The most important thing is to find a good machinist who can measure your crank and machine it properly in the same time cleaning inside oil channels. He will be crucial with reconditioning cylinder and cylinder head as well.
With assembly of the engine we can guide you step by step.
 
#24 ·
Okay so I'm looking at the caps that are in the bike, and I think I see what looks like scoring. Is that something to be worried about? It's not huge. Also what does that mean for the crankshaft? Looking at the journals they don't look scored at all, and I assume that what scored the caps is the small holes (lubrication system?)

Attaching pictures of the a set of caps and the crankshaft for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Jon
 

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#25 ·
Journals have to be cleaned from grease and measured with micrometer, oil channels cleaned.
They look like they are not scored, but without measuring you don't know how worn are they.
Caps inserts have to be exchanged for a new ones as a rule.
Scoring was done by some dirt in the oil, or lack of oil during starting of the engine and stopping it when crank's journal touched a cap's insert.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I did the same as you once, Palehorse. I bought a T160 that had been stripped totally, I mean every stud was out of every casting, not one assembly left assembled. It filled my Fiat 126 with the passenger seat taken out. It came with a genuine manual and parts book. I felt daunted at first, having spread all the engine / transmission / gearbox parts out neatly on my floor. But after a while of looking at all the parts, looking at the manual and offering parts up if I had any doubt about where / how they went or how any assemblies worked, it started to make perfect sense.

Trident engines are complex compared to the twins - they have a hell of a lot of individual components, and not just because they have one more cylinder. But they are perfectly logical and very well designed. My advice is to think everything through to the point where you've practically done it in your head, before actually doing it.

Some good advice has already been posted on this thread - plenty more where that came from, I'm sure. The main limiting factor, if you have the patience and determination to do it absolutely right, will be cash. Nothing's cheap any more for these old things (and if something seems cheap, be suspicious - there are some bad quality pattern parts out there - find good, reputable, highly experienced Triumph parts dealers and buy from them).

You'll be rewarded with one of the best motorcycles ever made if you get it all done right - and you most certainly can get it all done right, there's no magic required!
 
#28 ·
If you mean me Adam, I sold it in 1983 for £2250, which was a lot of money in those days, but it was bloody perfect! I sold it because I'd made it so perfect I couldn't bear to get it dirty. If I saw a puddle I'd panic at the thought of that dirty water splashing all over my countless hours of work. I'd never ride it if it looked like rain. One day, it just dawned on me: I'm not really enjoying this. I sold it, spent the money on another couple of projects and carried on thrashing my tatty B50 without a care.
 
#29 ·
So I've started in and the first task I'm tackling is putting the con rods onto the journals of the crankshaft. I've measure the journals and found that they require -0.030 bearings, of which there was two sets of new cap inserts of -0.030 included in the parts.

My question is now that the journals match up with the inserts, is there anything else to do before bolting the rods back on? I have oil ready to go and a torque wrench with the spec (18foot/pounds). I've seen people online use Plastigauge for this task to make sure the clearance is correct, but is that necessary when the measurements look good and match with what the former owner had supplied parts for? (He also noted the journal measurements in the manual which agree with what I have)

I can see why a task like this would take two years @JohnA Everytime I turn around I'm looking for a part.
 
#30 ·
Yes, check the clearances with plastic-gauge. This is the only chance you will have to do it, so make sure its right. Use your old rod nuts for the check. Use new ones for final assembly. Use assembly lube on the bearings. Building the bottom end is not a time to rush things. You hope you'll never see it again.
 
#31 ·
Thanks @htown16. I checked the clearance of one of the con rod bearings and it came out to .002. Which I cannot for the life of me find any reference to in the manuals. Is that good? Haha.

Other things I've run into that I wonder about. I was reading a thread here about con rod torquing and I saw that con rod bolts can be over-torqued past their elasticity point and become liable to break?? Confession time, I am fairly sure I over-torqued the bolts I have in the con rods before then removing them shortly after. Probably on for 5 mins before I took them off again, my 'somethin ain't right' sense going off. The bolts that are in my con rods appear to be the original, in that they're dark grey and may even be fused to the rods themselves as they won't come out. So as before, are con rod bolts and/or nuts something to re-use? If not, is there an established best replacement source?
 
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