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Oiling questions!

6K views 54 replies 7 participants last post by  Code Man 
#1 ·
I have an engine (76 T140V) that hasn't run in probably 30 years. The engine has always been stored indoors in a semi arid environment with the exhaust and carb openings stuffed with rags. When I removed the outer side covers the inside of the engine looked really clean to me so I decided to see if I could just get it going without splitting the cases or removing the cylinders. So, I ended up just doing the following:

1.) Replace cylinder head with used head and had valves ground.

2.) Installed new clutch.

3.) When I got the engine it had the wrong Timing cover and the wrong transmission outer cover so for that and other reasons I replaced them.

4.) I also sent carbs away and had a machinist resleeve them.

5.) New points and condensers.

I'm at the point of getting ready to see if this engine will run but I saw a thread here somewhere that said I should take an oil can and pump oil into the crankshaft end on the timing side before trying to start it. I also tried to see if oil was circulating so I took the oil pressure release valve out to see if I could see oil coming out while kicking the engine over. I kicked it over about 20 times and could not see any oil coming out. So, I removed the timing cover and took a oil pump can and tried to pump oil into the end of the crankshaft. I pumped it several times and it actually built up some pressure there so that when I removed the tip of the oil pump can the oil squirted back out of the end of the crank all over my shirt. So I tried kicking the engine over while pumping oil in there and it was still the same. It built up pressure and squirted back out the end of the crank when I removed the oil can but never came out where the OPRV was installed.
While I had the timing cover off, I didn't see any oil coming out of the engine's oil pump while kicking it over. So I took the oil pump off and took the pistons out and didn't see any junk or crud in there so I just oiled them real good and put them back in and installed the pump back on the engine. When I had the pump off oil from the tank started to drain out the hole where the pump was installed so I knew the pump was getting oil. When I put the pump back on and while kicking the engine over, oil was now coming out that little hole under the pump area where it exits the engine case and enters the timing cover. So I put my finger over the hole while cranking the engine over and it took a couple, three or four kicks to get pressure there but it did pump up pretty good. So do you think that is normal to take 3 or 4 kicks to have pressure there. The other thing I noticed is it looked like the oil pump was from an older model T120R engine because of the little holes in it compared to the new pumps I see on the internet for a 76 T140 that have elongated holes. So I'm not sure what to do. Should I just get another oil pump and even if I do get another pump is it normal for the oil to have such a hard time going through the crankshaft?

All opinions welcome!
Thanks,
Gary
 
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#2 ·
I don't think there are hard and fast rules about how hard it is to pump oil through the crank. Usually you can feel that some oil is going somewhere.

If the pump is now pumping, that's good. Dirt under the spring loaded balls at the bottom of the pump is a common cause of failure to pump.

I don't know about the older pump/small ports thing, but you may wish to fit a pressure gauge, at least temporarily.
 
#3 ·
the oil pump should be OK -as far as i know all pumps will fit all years and pump oil -- with the pump off the bike pull the plungers back and fill the pump with oil - push the plungers back in one at a time - there should be resistance but push them all the way - the oil should squirt out and hit the ceiling and you should hear a slight click as the ball inside the pump re-seats - not a perfect test but will show the pump is doing some work
-- twenty times operation of the kick start may not be enough to get the oil back to the tank - do at least that much again
-- is there an oil pressure switch fitted and wired ? - light should go out after a few kicks - that will show the pump is making pressure in the system
 
#4 ·
Hi Gary, You can do a few things depending on your preference. Since you had the head off not long ago, you don't need to worry about dry rockers, valves. Personally I'd pull the oil pressure switch & take a pumper oil can & pump a cup or so of oil into the port & it will fill crank & rod bearings. Put oil press switch back in. Rod bearings are the #1 concern. I'd also pump a table spoon of oil down spark plug holes. Of course oil tank will have already been filled. Then with plugs still out kick eng until oil pressure light goes out & oil returns to tank Will be about 50-100 kicks. Excess oil will spew from plug holes & also go into exhaust. No worries, expect smoke for 5min or so. Then start it up. I wouldn't be surprised if starts on 1st kick.
Don
 
#9 ·
Hi Gary,

Since you had the head off not long ago, you don't need to worry about dry rockers, valves.
:confused:

Ime, read and follow "Waking The Sleeping Beast". The author was a long-time owner, dealer, builder and racer. His advice to put a small quantity of oil in the crankcase (in addition to any that runs down from dousing the valve gear) - to lubricate the normally-splash-lubricated parts during turning-over and immediately the engine starts - isn't mentioned by any other advice that I've read.

It also reduces the heart-stopping period between starting the engine and the first oil appearing back in the tank/frame. A consideration as the owners age ...

Hth.

Regards,
 
#7 ·
Hi Don,
Yes I think I'm going to stick the fuel tank on (unpainted) and hook up the fuel lines. Don't have a battery yet so will have to use my car battery. I'll have a fire extinguisher standing by in case of disaster.
Good idea to video so yes I'll get my wife to run the camera. I don't plan on riding it so I won't ever stick it in gear if that's what you're talking about regarding it getting out from under me. I'll also be sure to have plenty of space in front of me just in case it pops in gear for some reason. I'll talk to you tomorrow it's getting late 11:40 PM. Good night.....Gary
 
#8 ·
#13 ·
Well, worked on the Triumph most of the day. I took the oil pump off again because when I had it off earlier I didn't remove and clean the ball and springs. Then I reinstalled the timing cover and removed the oil pressure switch and filled it with oil. Then I removed the rocker caps for both the intake and exhaust sides and squirted a bunch of oil in there all over the valves guides and rocker arms. Then took a break and went to the auto parts store and bought a battery for the bike. I came home and was following the instructions on activating the battery and getting it charged. That's when I discovered that my battery charger was a 10 amp charger and the new battery instructions said to use a charger that only charges at 1 to 1.5 amps and not to exceed 2 amps or it will shorten the life of the battery and void the warranty. So back to the store to get a new trickle charger. Now that the battery's on the charger I decided to reinstall the centrifugal advance and points plate. Before doing that I pulled the crank case drain plug and some oil came out (maybe a 1/3 of a cup of oil). I didn't think anything of it because the bike has been sitting for a few days with oil in tank and maybe it dripped down to the bottom of the engine. Then I cranked the engine over trying to find tdc and saw more oil coming out of the drain hole every time I cranked the engine over. Now I'm thinking the oil pumps working and oil is circulating through the crankshaft. I'm a happy camper!:smile2: However, about a half hour later after screwing with the timing and setting point gap I noticed oil collecting around the bottom of the push rod tubes.:frown2: That was a real bummer because I really wanted to start this thing today. Oh well, having a cocktail now and will get to taking it back apart tomorrow. I'll try to get back to this thread when I get back to trying to fire it up.:|.....Gary
 
#14 ·
I'll try to get back to this thread when I get back to trying to fire it up.:|.....Gary
Cheer up Bro. In the words of one of Australia's less popular Prime Minister's, "life wasn't meant to be easy".

The sump is always going to have about 130ml (more or less) of oil left that the pump cannot retrieve. Much more than that after sitting, might suggest the non-return ball on the oil pump could be unseated by dirt.

Looking to hear good news from you soon. RR
 
#16 ·
Hi Gary, I'm surprised about the prt leak. I would not take it apart yet. I would start it up & see what happens. You may run into other problems or leaks. Or... It may be ok. At least you'll know & that will give you direction of the next steps you need to take without speculation. Plus you'll be able to listen for any odd noises. Run the motor & try to find out where the prt may be leaking from. If it's the lower exhaust prt it could be from the exhaust tappet block oring. That is very hard to diagnose as you can't hardly tell it from lower prt seal leak. But I still suggest starting it up. Be sure to put a fan in front of eng to keep it cool. If you could just set on the frame & run it up & down the little road at your house that would be good so you can test trans etc. I'll leave that up to you, but still I'd start it.
Don
 
#17 ·
Hi Don, I was surprised also about the leak. I really thought I had it dialed in. What do you think really keeps the oil from leaking the lower interior O-ring or the bottom white square O-ring that is so critical for the right amount of crush? I think I probably could have gone with a thicker square oring for the crush and maybe a little more silicone. I went light on the silicone because I was afraid of the excess getting in the oil and plugging something up.

I was thinking the same thing you said about continuing to try to get it to start. So I spent a lot of time yesterday and got the static timing and point gap right. Also spent time working on some electrical. For some reason the headlight and brake lights don't work. Want to make sure it all works before trying to start it.

This might take a while because being retired makes me lazy. It's almost 11:00 AM and still in my pajamas!:sip.....Gary
 
#19 ·
Hi Gary, I think the round one does most of the sealing. This is a guess as I really don't know. But I worked on Porsches for 12 years & the 911 motors just use round orings & those motors expand hot just as much if not more than a Triumph & the oil is in them most all the time as well. On 911s the tubes are actually oil return, as it's overhead cam, but they are like our pushrod tubes.

For sure get it running 1st.

Regarding the electrical absolutely get that sorted before starting. We don't want a short or anything to go bad with the wiring. Also verify you have spark before starting just to be sure that's ok. Good luck & take your time.
Don
 
#21 ·
Hey Don,
I got the wiring corrected today and all it was, was a couple of wires at the ignition switch were crossed and the main fuse was blown. So horns work, hi and low beam, pilot light, stop and tail lights, everything works good now except the warning lights in the head light bucket. Just need the BA7S bulbs because I bought LED type BA7S's a while back and they won't work. I think it's because of the positive grounded bike. I heard on here somewhere that LED's don't work with positive ground for some reason or another.

No other oil leaks besides the PRT's. Filled the transmission a few days ago and no leaks so far. Hope to possibly start the engine tomorrow if all goes well.:smile2:....Gary
 
#22 ·
It Runs!!

Okay, I finally got to the point where I could start the bike and it started on the first crank.:grin2: However it started to smoke like the dickens after just a few seconds. Then a plastic oil line that I had going to a temporary oil gage melted through where it was touching my exhaust pipe and oil leaked all over everything. The fan I had set up to keep the engine from overheating helped spread the oil I think. Also, all my exhaust clamps were way too loose and smoky exhaust was coming out all the connections.

I did not hear any unusual noises, the engine sounded really good.:smile2: Unfortunately I had to shut it off because I couldn't breath inside my smoke filled garage.

Before the exhaust burnt through the plastic oil line the gage was reading a little over 75 lbs of pressure. So I thought that was good.

I guess when I take the head back off to fix the oil leak at the PRT's I'll put new rings on the pistons. Anyway, it was so much fun to hear it run so good with no knocking or clunking. The lower end sounded so good.:smile2:....Gary
 

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#25 ·
Hi Gary, Congratulations!! Doesn't surprise me at all it fired on the 1st kick. When all is set up, that is expected. So that is really good! Looks like you are going in the right direction. Your oil pressure is excellent, so all those worries are behind you.

If I may suggest again, don't take the head off just yet. Ride it a little & go through the gears even if it's leaking fairly bad. Zip tie some rags around the area so oil doesn't get on back tire while riding. The smoke is normal at 1st start up & expected. The bike may still have a few tiny exhaust leaks even after tightening clamps. Don't worry about that. After the oil burns out of everything they probably won't be noticeable. If no backfires on decal & it's not sooting up the head area, don't bother with them. Try to put a mile or so at least on the bike. Try to get up to 5th even if your only going 20mph so you know it all works. Hang your temp registration on the fender & get your insurance in order. Then the cops won't cite you or impound the bike. Wear your helmet of course. Then go back & see what you need to correct.

Regarding the led bulbs, yes leds are polarity sensitive. However... it depends on how the bulbs are built. Some are non polarity sensitive & some are. The flat base leds that fit my bike are not. I turned bulbs around & no matter, they still light. I don't know how they do that when build led bulb, but they can. I don't know what it takes to swap earth & power on your type bulb holders. For an experiment hook the bulbs to battery with jumper wires, swap leads & find out.

Again, congratulations. Looking like we'll be riding together at the Clubman's show, if not before.
Don
 
#26 ·
Hi Don,
I was really surprised at how well the bike sounded but the oil burning is pretty bad. Smoked up my garage and around the house. Do you really think the smoking will subside? I shut the bike off and tightened up the exhaust and put the oil pressure sending unit back in and started it back up again later in the day. I found another major oil leak coming from where the oil pipe manifold connects to the engine directly under the oil pump area. I'm hoping that it's leaking from where the rubber hoses connect to the metal pipes. I'm going to give them a good tightening and see what happens tomorrow. It doesn't leak if the engine isn't running.

You're giving me some hope that the engine might be salvageable from all the smoke without a major tear down.

The indicator light bulbs came in the mail today. I'll put them in tomorrow before starting it up again.

I can hardly wait to be riding this bike in the Clubman's show:ride.....Gary
 
#27 ·
Hey Don,
Sorry, never made it to try and start the Triumph today. Got to it late in the day and spent a lot of time looking for and tightening all the oil lines. Then decided to put the rear fender on since I was going to take it for a ride up the street and see if I could get it to go through all the gears. I'm lucky to live on a private road so won't be wearing a helmet (I don't have one yet) and don't have insurance or have it registered. I also want to call my neighbors just to let them know that we're not having a forest fire that it's just my engine smoking things up. Hope to start it again tomorrow and hope all oil (except the PRT's) leaks are gone. Also hope all five speeds are there.....Gary
 
#28 ·
Hi Gary, I don't recall what your bores looked like, but I can say with certainty it often takes a good 20 min or more for the smoke to burn out from inside the pipes & mufflers. At the same time the rings will need so miles to work themselves back in & push the old hardened oil from behind them. My bike smoked like mad after it's first start after 34 years. Doesn't smoke at all now or use oil.

The oil leak at the oil feed pipes concern me. Try to get a diagnosis on that. We don't want the pipe to come loose or blow the gasket out. I might go ahead & fix that before riding. Then since you can ride the bike without legal issues ride it & look for issues, then ride some more. Try to work all the bugs out you can now. Plus it will give you some practice riding.

I have a fairly large back yard. I probably put 2 miles on the bike in the yard riding in circles until I could turn both left & right just creeping along without wobbling or putting my feet down. Was really hard at first, but after a few hours I got good. I road bicycles every week, but was 30 years since riding a motorcycle. I was a little surprised at how different they ride & how rusty I was at motorcycling. I might... have ridden it around the block a few times to check the gears etc. The cops are really strict in my city & if pulled over the bike would have gone straight to impound so caution was needed.
Finally I was all licensed & insured, even got a new helmet. Was Halloween night. About 9pm I went for a real ride. What an experience. I went to Pleasant Hill road & took it up to 55. Felt like 100! Was a little scary. It's kind of steep in places, that's when I first experienced pinging. On the way back, east bound it's deeply rain grooved. The bike wobbled like mad on the grooves with the new k70s. I was terrified & prayed God would spare my life. Kind of funny to look back on it now. After some practice, I intentionally road every surface of road I could find to become skilled & familiar with anything I encountered, I still have to practice metal grate bridges. That's my last hurdle. I road them often years ago. But now I need to practice on them.

Good luck, keep us posted.
Don
 
#29 ·
Don,
That's very encouraging about the oil burning! I put the (unpainted) rear fender on yesterday and put the indicator bulbs in and all lights work good. Went grocery shopping at Costco today down in Folsom and that took most of the day so never made it to fire the bike back up -- Don't want to smoke the neighbors out at dinner time. Tomorrow, for sure, I'm going to take it for a ride down the street. I'll let you know how it goes!....Gary
 
#31 ·
I would be re-checking every nut and bolt after an initial run up the road.Once that bike gets out for its first 50 miles,most of the parts that are going to fall off,will have done so by then.They tend to shake off the indicators and rear mudguard bolts.Make sure the footrests are tight as they also tend to unscrew.
 
#33 ·
Hi guys,
Thanks Stuart for the input about the light bulbs. I'll reverse the wires some day after I get this darn engine to stop leaking oil.

Don, I fired it back up today and the darn thing is still leaking oil from the oil pipe manifold area and still think it's the gosh darn oil hose. I've got some kind of a cloth wrapped stainless steel mesh over rubber hose that I think is not squishing tight enough over the pipe. Plus the clamp was buckling somewhat. I took the outside cover off the trany and attached another hose (gates fuel hose) there and pumped air pressure up the pipe and squirted soapy water all around the pipe manifold and could not see any leaks. I did hear air escaping inside the timing cover but could not see or hear it leaking anywhere else. I attached a couple photos below to help explain things a little better.....Gary
 

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#34 ·
Hi Gary, That's no good. When the clamps buckle like that, they will often leak. Be careful blowing air into the pipe, you don't want to over pressure the crank seal & turn it inside out, also, it blows all the oil out of the rod bearings. Re pump oil with the oil can to get oil back in. At the same time once the oil is blown from the pump pistons you might hear air exscaping there also. Since your oil pressure was good, you don't have issues in timing cover.

However, it would have been nice to get a real diagnosis on the oil line leak. Exact which line & where? Or... is it the junction block gasket?

Back to the lines & clamp, those type clamps tend to work quite well & I like them. I always put a drop of oil on threads & on the "band end" so that end can slide around the tin above it & also slide on the hose. Often the clamp will buckle like this when the band end can't slide around the hose or catches on the tin above it. Too small a clamp for hose dia. can cause that as the end tends to catch. To large a clamp will not clinch tight enough which is usually obvious. Also a little lube like silicon spray under the clamp on the hose, so all can slide together easily. The clamp needs to be sized for the hose of course. However, it looks like your clamp is about the right size & I think it was catching on the fabric. You might have to experiment to get it right. If your low on clamps, you could probably straighten this one & reuse it.

I have a hunch there is a little more going on though. How tight does the hose fit the metal tube? You want a snug fit. If it is an easy sliding fit or worse, slightly loose a clamp will never really hold it long term if at all. I'm not too big a fan of the hoses with the braided overlay. We used them for years at Porsche & Mercedes, to mostly poor results. Finally they went to a hose with imbedded fabric that looks rather like modern fuel line. Look at some photos of the Triumphs from '73-79 or so. You'll see it's smooth rubber w/imbedded fabric. That's the type my bike has & it's easier to use, doesn't fray & tends to leak less. Still it must be a snug fit on the metal pipe. I don't recall what my old '70 TR6C had for hose. But in your case, I might go to the newer style hose. You must get oil hose, not fuel line or it may not hold up.
Don
 
#35 ·
Don, Thanks for getting back to me. I wonder if Gates makes oil hose? I'll check online to see but I thought that if the hose will withstand gasoline it'll withstand oil.

I only pumped around 40 or 50 psi into the line. I was thinking if the crank seal will handle 75 psi of oil pressure it should handle 50 psi of air pressure.....Gary
 
#37 ·
I use fuel injection hose and have done for many years.It is not affected by oil at all.With good quality clips,it will not leak.You might try rubbing a little gasket sealant on the two metal pipes before sliding on the rubber tube.In theory,it will not be able to enter the oil if done carefully.I use Blue Hylomar and just a little smear.Not silicone gasket.
 
#38 ·
Hi Gary, I used fuel injection hose on my Cub. But didn't run it much so no long term results from me. My feeling is the injection hose would be fine. Don't use the normal fuel line (I think Gates calls it carb & pvc line) though like I have to my carbs. That's too flimsy. Personally I would not use sealant on the hose. Gates makes fuel injection hose & most parts houses stock it. I don't know what size your lines are. Maybe find a bolt of the same OD & cut threads off. Take that to store to test fit the new hose. For sure Gates calls the heavy duty stuff "fuel injection hose". Here's a link.

http://www.gates.com/products/autom...fuel-system/barricade-fuel-injection-hose-mpi

You are correct 55 psi will do no damage.
Don
 
#39 · (Edited)
Don,
I went to O'Reilly's and got some 5/16" Gates oil hose with a 400 psi rating @ $3.99/ft. I bought 4 ft to cover both the supply and return. However, the 5/16" hose works fine for the return side but for some reason the supply line on the manifold is 3/8" and my tubing out of my oil tank filter is 5/16". The other braided hose was able to stretch over the 3/8" tubing on the manifold but this new Gates oil hose will not stretch over it. I tried everything and can't get it to go on. So, I was wondering if the oil line manifold for the pre OIF had both tubes on the manifold at 5/16"? What do you have on your bike? I see that the supply pipe on the manifold is much shorter than the return side. I'm wondering if the previous owner cut the pipe off and maybe the original pipe was reduced down to 5/16" OD and that part got cut off?
If you go to my previous post #33 you can see a photo of the oil manifold and you can see how short the supply pipe is.
 
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