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Old 03-30-2006   #1 (permalink)
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Grand Prix 125
 
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Hi All,
Recently rebuilt my 4th Triumph engine.(650) Just finished putting it all together, timed the valves, primed the lines ect. Started on the third kick. Idles well and throttles up good. Had a few puffs of smoke when I first started it. No big deal as this is typical as it burns the residue out. Watched closely as it pumped oil up the line to the top end. About 10-15 seconds after the oil made it to the top end, a couple of puffs of smoke from the left cylinder. About a half a minute later the right cylinder started to smoke too. Now they both smoke(not heavily). Mostly when I roll off the throttle or if I snap it open. My question is; Does this sound like valve guides to anyone out there? Or is it maybe sending too much oil to the top end and flooding it? I can't believe that the 3 previous engines all had good heads but this one is pooched, but it wouldn't suprise me. Looking forward to your replies.
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Old 03-30-2006   #2 (permalink)
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Hi Clint, I am not the most knowledgeable guy in this manner, I am just now doing my first full rebuild and I've got a lot of help from this website especially from GarndPaulZ. I have however redone the top end on my half liter a few times and my experience may shed some light on it. I had a smoking left piston similar to yours. Basically it smoked when I tapped it. When I took it apart I found that I had a loose valve guide as well as a scored piston where the rings had broke done. I should also mention that I tested the compression prior to removing the head and it was good. So here you go, was it the valve guide or the piston rings or both? I guess my input would be that you are going to have to take the head off anyway, so if the valve guide is okay, or even if it is not, you may want to pull the barrel off and check the pistons and the rings. In my case, it was only then that I saw that the piston and rings had a problem. Like I said, up until that point the compression was good, the bike ran well, and my only indication of a problem was the smoke. Before I got into old British bikes I was always told that they take a lot of work, conversely I have learned that the engine will take a lot of abuse and still keep running. Such as was my case. I hope this helps. Hank
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Old 03-30-2006   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks HankQ, I figure it probably is guides. I did install new pistons and rings when I put it back together. I also used the same shop to bore the cyclinders and do all my machine work, so I'm reasonably sure thats not it. I will tear it down this weekend and have a look. I'll let you kow what I find when I have it apart. Looks like it might be time to dig out that single carb head stashed somewhere in the back of my garage.
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Old 03-31-2006   #4 (permalink)
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What were the static measurements on your ring end gap, and your piston-to-bore clearance?

Loose or worn out guides are a likely culprit. I have seen loose guides when COLD, I can imagine them HOT!
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Old 03-31-2006   #5 (permalink)
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Ok, Started my bike and let it warm up to operating temp. not as much smoke as the first time I let it run. Shut it off and let it cool down before rechecking valves.Started it up and went for a ride. Each time I start it, I got less smoke than the time before. This morning I started it and let it warm up and holy smoke! No Smoke! After a ride around the neighbourhood I return home and still no smoke. My question now is could I maybe have flooded the cylinders with oil by over pressurising the top end? Or could it just have taken a good 15 min for the rings to seat properly? If so, I would have thought it would smoke alot more than it did when I first started it? It runs great now and doesn't smoke a bit. I will go for a longer ride later today(25 miles) return home and change the oil and then see if it happens again. My machine shop guy assures me that the piston ring end gap and the piston to cylinder clearances were all within specs. I have built a couple of these engines in the past but I am by no means a"proffesional mechanic", so I leave the machine work to the proffesionals. But this dissapearing smoke is a mystery to me. The bike runs fine and accelerates good,with no more than the normal noises. I would guess that it has self corrected itself. Any comment or ideas? Am I in for a future catastrophe or should I just ride it? I hope for the latter but am prepared for the former. Thanks for the info guys.
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Old 03-31-2006   #6 (permalink)
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Sounds good to me, but now you have me worrying about my own bike. I just put the pistons and the cylander back together on my 500 Daytona. The machine shop bored the cylander 020 over to match the pistons (Cycle craft aftermarkets that I left with him when he did the job.) I put the the barrel together with the pistons and rings. So when should I worry about the end ring gap or piston to bore clearence? Do I need to check these in the rebuild process with all new parts on the rebuild. Note that my machine shop did not have the rings during the job, he just took the pistons. Clint? GrandPZ? Thanks Hank
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Old 03-31-2006   #7 (permalink)
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HankQ,
I copied and pasted this from some where. It expains it a lot better than I could ever hope to. In all honesty, my machine shop takes care of this for me. I leave both the pistons and rings and when I pick them up they are ready to go. I install the rings on the pistons though. I have used the same shop for quite a while. They have a good reputation and have been in our area for as long as I can remember. I would be lost with out them. Hope you can use this:


PISTON RING END GAP RECOMMENDATIONS
by Larry Carley c2005 www.CarleySoftware.com

Checking and adjusting the end gaps of the pistons rings is necessary when new rings or pistons are installed in an engine. The proper end gap assures a good combustion seal (minimum blowby) and allows adequate clearance between the ends of the rings so they do not butt up against each other and cause the rings to scuff.

End gap can be measured by placing the piston ring in the cylinder bore and inserting a feeler gauge between the ends of the ring. If the gap is too narrow (less than the minimum recommended clearance), the ends of the rings can be filed to increase the gap. File carefully so that both ends of the ring remain parallel to each other. In other words, don't file at an angle. The ends of the ring must be square.

WARNING: When measuring end gap, check the gap with the rings at the top and the bottom of the bore. If the bore has taper wear (bores typically wear most at the top), the end gap will be larger at the top and smaller at the bottom of the bore. Use the bottom position to set the end gap. If you use the top of a worn bore to set the end gap, the end gap will be too small when the piston reaches the bottom of the bore. The ends of the ring may hit each other causing the ring to bind and scuff. Cylinders that have more than .003 to .005 inches of taper wear should probably be bored or honed to oversize to restore proper piston and ring clearances. Refer to the engine manufacturer's specifications for the maximum allowable taper wear.

Piston Ring End Gap Recommendations
Most piston ring manufacturers recommend a minimum end gap of .004 inches times the bore diameter for the top piston compression ring. So for a 4 inch bore, the standard end gap would be .016 inches.

For the 2nd compression ring, the standard end gap recommendation for most stock engines is typically .005 in. x the bore diameter. So for a 4 inch bore, the minimum end gap on the 2nd ring would be .020 inches.

For a modified street performance engine that generates more horsepower and heat, the end gap should be opened up a bit to compensate for increased thermal expansion. The recommendation would be a minimum top compression piston ring end gap of.0045 to .005 inches times the bore diameter. For a 4 inch bore, the ring end gap on the top ring should be increased to .018 to .020 inches.

For the 2nd compression ring on a modified street performance engine, the recommendation is typically open up the end gap to .0055 inches times the bore diameter. For a 4 inch bore, the 2nd ring would be gapped to .022 inches.

For a nitrous or blown racing engine, the top ring end gap sould be opened up to as much as .006 or .007 inches times the bore diameter. Now we're looking at a 2nd ring end gap of .024 to .028 inches in an engine with 4 inch bores.

For the 2nd ring on a nitrous or blown motor, the recommended ring end gap is even wider: .0063 to .0073 inchestimes the bore ( or 0.025 to 0.029 inches with a 4 inch bore).

The recommended ring end gap for oil rings regardless of the engine application is typically .015 inches.

Some racers believe that opening up the 2nd end gap even more (say an additional 10%) can improve overall ring sealing by allowing trapped gases to escape before they blow past the top ring and cause ring flutter at high rpm (say above 5000 to 6000 rpm).

NOTE: These recommendations are rules of thumb only. Always follow the end gap specifications recommended by the piston ring supplier or engine manufacturer.


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Old 04-01-2006   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks Clint. Since I have not yet lowered the head down, I am going to pull the barrel and check the end gap. I get it now. The post from your machine shop says to take the bore in inches and multiply it by 0.004 for an approximation. With this in mind, it appears that an overbore does not affect end gap clearence. Anyone? Anyway I have the end gap settings in my manual. As far as the piston to bore clearence, the machine shop had the pistons and I trust their work. However, I hate to assume anything so I will check it. Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. Good luck with the rebuild. Hank
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Old 04-01-2006   #9 (permalink)
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Clint:

The "disappearing smoke" is normal after an overhaul. Usually it blows off in the first few minutes, but can sometimes take a little longer. Sounds good to go.

Hank:

Definitely check the ring end gap, I'm just a bit suprised your machinist didn't do that. Was it the shop foreman who took the work in, or just "one of the guys"?
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Old 04-01-2006   #10 (permalink)
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Hey GPZ, it was the shop foreman. He is a reputable guy that mainly does car stuff. I even asked if he needed the rings. But I did check the ring gap this morning. The manual had it between .010-.014 for bot the compression and oil control. I put them individually in their respective barrels in the proper posistion and they all measured .011. The shop had the pistons, so I feel I shouldn't have to check the piston to bore ratio. But I could be wrong. What should the piston to bore ratio be? My manual dosn't say anything about it. Does it matter if the shop had the pistons and it is a rebore? Oh well, I try to look for the good in everything. If the shop was supposed to check the REG and didn't, and I had to do it, well its just one more thing that I learned. Obviously, with new rings and new pistons on a rebore you would only have to deal with the REG being to small. I would deduce that it would only be large after wear. Anyway I put it back together and the crank turns the pistons over fine. Thanks Clint. Thanks GPZ.
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