To hone or Not to hone? - Page 2 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
» Main Menu

Discussion Forums
 » Twins
 » Tiger
 » General
 » RAT

Features
 » Blogs

Motorcycle.com Links

Contribute
 » Photo

Motorcycle Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games

Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-28-2012, 06:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperStock
Main Motorcycle: 1978 Triumph 750 Tiger
 
tommytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Derby
Posts: 267
Other Motorcycle: Trident 900
Mr Pete,
are you saying the max/min sizes for the bores for example are in fact the manufacturing tolerances? I've never thought of it like that, I always thought they were a guide for anyone rebuilding the engine whether a part was beyond it's limits for use.

How does one know a part is worn out, is it purely done with experience?
tommytiger is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-28-2012, 10:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
World SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: '72 Bonneville
 
RetroRod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,006
Other Motorcycle: Suzuki GSX1400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Pete View Post
If the rings and cylinders look "really good",you could re-use the rings without any honing.
If you've taken the rings off the pistons,you probably should replace them.

If there's less than 0.006" wear on the cylinders,use the old pistons with new rings.When you do a re-ring,you should hone the cylinders with a #180 grit hone (#150 - #220 will do).
I'm with you on this Pete. That guy who wrings the very last bit of wear from anything, our respected mate Plewsy, would go along with us well I think. RR
__________________
"A cynic is a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, and not as they ought to be."
Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)

http://www.reinstatehank.org/
RetroRod is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 07:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
Powerbike
Main Motorcycle: '74 T140V Chop
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Woodbridge, UK
Posts: 388
Does he not use sandpaper on the bores though?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Motorcycle.com Free App
loxx101 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 08:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
Member
Grand Prix 250
Main Motorcycle: 1966 T100C
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 54
I reluctantly provide this link:

http://www.snowvalley.20m.com/bikes/dnthone.htm

I don't know if this guy is full of BS or not. I found it on the internet and it was interesting. By posting this I am not endorsing his opinions.
__________________
...Roger
Boingoloid is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 04:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
Grand Prix 500
Main Motorcycle: T140E
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: US
Posts: 129
I agree with the article. I don't have extensive experience as a motorcycle tech but I did do it for a few years. I worked at an HD dealership. The only time we ever used the hone was after a bore job. We routinely measured cylinders for wear, taper and out of round. If they were in spec we replaced the rings, set the ring gap but never honed. We took off alot of cylinders, usually for powder coat or polishing or some other nonsense (chromed edges, removed fins, etc). They all got the same treatment: measure and inspect before any work was performed.

I don't understand the need to lap valves and hone cylinders without measuring and checking clearances. Your eyes can't tell a cylinder is out of round or tapered.

Scott
Rookster is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 04:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
Senior Member
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: 06 Thruxton
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Winter Park, FL USA
Posts: 494
Other Motorcycle: '69 Bonneville
Extra Motorcycle: '71 Bonneville
11/30/12, After conversations with Mr. Pete and more research into this matter, I have found that none of my following post has merit. I will leave it up just in the interest of honesty but now I find that there is substantial evidence that rings do indeed rotate in their bores.




((((I've read this article before and didn't really agree with it then. I believe that there is value in honing and will offer my reasoning. If it makes sense to you perhaps you will "buy in" to the idea. If it doesn't, that's OK too.

I have run into valve trains which included rotators that made the valves rotate a little each time they opened. I have noted that sprocket and chain systems are commonly designed so that the chain and sprockets "hunt" and take many revolutions to finally get back to the point of making contact with the same tooth and link as before.

However, I have never seen a system which provides for rotation of piston rings during operation. Not saying that there are none, but if there are, I haven't seen them. What I have seen are pistons that pin the ring in place so that it cannot rotate.

I think what happens as rings seat or bed in is that they develop small grooves in the bore, and once bedded, live there until disassembled by someone. These grooves become sort of like a bar code for that ring and are unique to it. If you remove the piston from it's bore I think it would be impractical to think that you could reinstall them, oriented in such a way, that they would ever go back into their respective grooves. I think what would happen is that the ring would ride on it's peaks and on the peaks of the cylinder until it had worn both down to level. But, you would still be left with all the grooves in both the ring and bore.

When you hone a cylinder which has had rings that have seated in it you "grind" away the tiny grooves from the previous ring set. Does this remove some metal? Of course. Under normal conditions you would still expect to have enough material left to keep piston to bore clearances with in an acceptable range. If not, then the cylinder needs to be bored and fitted with over size pistons to recover proper clearances. I would hone a newly bored cylinder if the shop did not do so prior to presenting it to the customer.

The cross hatch that is always recommended has, as an advantage, that it is less likely to produce bigger than necessary grooves caused by metal and stone becoming clogged in the stone. It also, I think, makes it easier for the new rings to "grind away" the tiny, diamond shaped, peaks that this pattern produces. But, I have nothing to back that up with, it's just conjecture.

I am aware of the line in both my '69 workshop manual and my '71 manual that notes if the old rings are to be reinstalled that the piston grooves should be cleaned. This would suggest that Triumph thinks it's OK to reuse old rings.

If I had an engine which I knew had very little mileage on it, so little that I felt the rings had not begun to seat, sure, I would reuse them if for some reason I had to pull it apart.

If , on the other hand I felt that the rings had begun to seat I think I would hone the cylinder and replace the rings. Further more, I think honing a cylinder that is very polished and looks quite pristine is still the way to go for quicker, better seating of the new rings.)))))

Flame suit securely fastened and all closures taped,

Art.

Last edited by BirdoPrey; 11-30-2012 at 12:37 PM.
BirdoPrey is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 04:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: 1977 T140V
 
Ohio-Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 961
Other Motorcycle: 1949 Ariel SQ4
Extra Motorcycle: 1945 WL (Civilian)
I think you explained that pretty well, and I agree.

These are the kind of things which seperate the one kick bikes and the three kick bikes.
Ohio-Rider is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 07:16 PM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
World SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 1970 Bonneville
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dearborn, Michigan
Posts: 2,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdoPrey View Post
I've read this article before and didn't really agree with it then. I believe that there is value in honing and will offer my reasoning. If it makes sense to you perhaps you will "buy in" to the idea. If it doesn't, that's OK too...

...Flame suit securely fastened and all closures taped,

Art.
The no-hone article kind of made sense to me but, I have pondered this off and on all day and come to agree with the Bird man's conclusion. With the feeble knowledge I have of machining and internal combustion engines (my expert knowledge goes more to beer, bangers and mash and onion gravey ), I figured that the up and down motion of the piston rings would produce artifacts in the cylinder wall similar to what a boring machine would produce but transposed by 90 degrees and henceforth a honing would be beneficial.

Now then, honing the cone is an entirely different matter .

Regards,
Henry
henryanthony is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 07:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: 1978 Bonneville T140V
 
Morris the Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Farmington,Connecticut
Posts: 991
Many years ago bought a cylinder honing tool- back in the day when many components were re-built as a matter of course.

Must admit it didn't get much use. . .


Also bought a special OTC clutch aligning set with 7 pilot bearing adaptors for cars, trucks and tractors.
Next time replacing a clutch, a plastic tool came with the clutch!

Someday when I get the courage, will remove the cyl. head and take a look.

Cross-Hatch hone job coming up!
__________________
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/9419068358_fe3bbd6508_t.jpg
Morris the Cat is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 07:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
Moderator
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: Rickman T120
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Victoria Australia
Posts: 4,192
Other Motorcycle: T160,TR6
Piston rings do rotate on the pistons.The speed of rotation varies and there are factors involved,but typically one rpm for every 1000 crankshaft rpm.
Mr.Pete is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Valve guide hone? onesided Classic, Vintage & Veteran 9 05-25-2011 05:43 PM
Hone Bore Nzbiker Classic, Vintage & Veteran 5 06-14-2009 09:51 PM
Extrude hone itchin Speed Triple Forum 4 09-15-2006 06:13 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:52 AM.



Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0