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post #11 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 06:07 PM
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Mr Pete,
are you saying the max/min sizes for the bores for example are in fact the manufacturing tolerances? I've never thought of it like that, I always thought they were a guide for anyone rebuilding the engine whether a part was beyond it's limits for use.

How does one know a part is worn out, is it purely done with experience?
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post #12 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Pete View Post
If the rings and cylinders look "really good",you could re-use the rings without any honing.
If you've taken the rings off the pistons,you probably should replace them.

If there's less than 0.006" wear on the cylinders,use the old pistons with new rings.When you do a re-ring,you should hone the cylinders with a #180 grit hone (#150 - #220 will do).
I'm with you on this Pete. That guy who wrings the very last bit of wear from anything, our respected mate Plewsy, would go along with us well I think. RR

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post #13 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 07:28 AM
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Does he not use sandpaper on the bores though?

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post #14 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 08:48 AM
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I reluctantly provide this link:

I don't know if this guy is full of BS or not. I found it on the internet and it was interesting. By posting this I am not endorsing his opinions.

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post #15 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 04:35 PM
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I agree with the article. I don't have extensive experience as a motorcycle tech but I did do it for a few years. I worked at an HD dealership. The only time we ever used the hone was after a bore job. We routinely measured cylinders for wear, taper and out of round. If they were in spec we replaced the rings, set the ring gap but never honed. We took off alot of cylinders, usually for powder coat or polishing or some other nonsense (chromed edges, removed fins, etc). They all got the same treatment: measure and inspect before any work was performed.

I don't understand the need to lap valves and hone cylinders without measuring and checking clearances. Your eyes can't tell a cylinder is out of round or tapered.

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post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 04:42 PM
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11/30/12, After conversations with Mr. Pete and more research into this matter, I have found that none of my following post has merit. I will leave it up just in the interest of honesty but now I find that there is substantial evidence that rings do indeed rotate in their bores.

((((I've read this article before and didn't really agree with it then. I believe that there is value in honing and will offer my reasoning. If it makes sense to you perhaps you will "buy in" to the idea. If it doesn't, that's OK too.

I have run into valve trains which included rotators that made the valves rotate a little each time they opened. I have noted that sprocket and chain systems are commonly designed so that the chain and sprockets "hunt" and take many revolutions to finally get back to the point of making contact with the same tooth and link as before.

However, I have never seen a system which provides for rotation of piston rings during operation. Not saying that there are none, but if there are, I haven't seen them. What I have seen are pistons that pin the ring in place so that it cannot rotate.

I think what happens as rings seat or bed in is that they develop small grooves in the bore, and once bedded, live there until disassembled by someone. These grooves become sort of like a bar code for that ring and are unique to it. If you remove the piston from it's bore I think it would be impractical to think that you could reinstall them, oriented in such a way, that they would ever go back into their respective grooves. I think what would happen is that the ring would ride on it's peaks and on the peaks of the cylinder until it had worn both down to level. But, you would still be left with all the grooves in both the ring and bore.

When you hone a cylinder which has had rings that have seated in it you "grind" away the tiny grooves from the previous ring set. Does this remove some metal? Of course. Under normal conditions you would still expect to have enough material left to keep piston to bore clearances with in an acceptable range. If not, then the cylinder needs to be bored and fitted with over size pistons to recover proper clearances. I would hone a newly bored cylinder if the shop did not do so prior to presenting it to the customer.

The cross hatch that is always recommended has, as an advantage, that it is less likely to produce bigger than necessary grooves caused by metal and stone becoming clogged in the stone. It also, I think, makes it easier for the new rings to "grind away" the tiny, diamond shaped, peaks that this pattern produces. But, I have nothing to back that up with, it's just conjecture.

I am aware of the line in both my '69 workshop manual and my '71 manual that notes if the old rings are to be reinstalled that the piston grooves should be cleaned. This would suggest that Triumph thinks it's OK to reuse old rings.

If I had an engine which I knew had very little mileage on it, so little that I felt the rings had not begun to seat, sure, I would reuse them if for some reason I had to pull it apart.

If , on the other hand I felt that the rings had begun to seat I think I would hone the cylinder and replace the rings. Further more, I think honing a cylinder that is very polished and looks quite pristine is still the way to go for quicker, better seating of the new rings.)))))

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Last edited by BirdoPrey; 11-30-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 04:54 PM
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I think you explained that pretty well, and I agree.

These are the kind of things which seperate the one kick bikes and the three kick bikes.
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post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BirdoPrey View Post
I've read this article before and didn't really agree with it then. I believe that there is value in honing and will offer my reasoning. If it makes sense to you perhaps you will "buy in" to the idea. If it doesn't, that's OK too...

...Flame suit securely fastened and all closures taped,

The no-hone article kind of made sense to me but, I have pondered this off and on all day and come to agree with the Bird man's conclusion. With the feeble knowledge I have of machining and internal combustion engines (my expert knowledge goes more to beer, bangers and mash and onion gravey ), I figured that the up and down motion of the piston rings would produce artifacts in the cylinder wall similar to what a boring machine would produce but transposed by 90 degrees and henceforth a honing would be beneficial.

Now then, honing the cone is an entirely different matter .

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post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 07:37 PM
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Many years ago bought a cylinder honing tool- back in the day when many components were re-built as a matter of course.

Must admit it didn't get much use. . .

Also bought a special OTC clutch aligning set with 7 pilot bearing adaptors for cars, trucks and tractors.
Next time replacing a clutch, a plastic tool came with the clutch!

Someday when I get the courage, will remove the cyl. head and take a look.

Cross-Hatch hone job coming up!
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post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 07:47 PM
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Piston rings do rotate on the pistons.The speed of rotation varies and there are factors involved,but typically one rpm for every 1000 crankshaft rpm.
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