Horse power - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
» Main Menu

Discussion Forums
 » Twins
 » Tiger
 » General
 » RAT

Features
 » Blogs

Motorcycle.com Links

Contribute
 » Photo

Motorcycle Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games

Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-18-2012, 02:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: t140d
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: nelson nz
Posts: 35
Horse power

I was reading a thread about the thruxton AI and how a lot of riders are throwing it away.

Thinking aloud I thought about cars and turbo/super charged, More fuel mixing with air gives more bang.

What about 100% pure oxygen surely would also with standard fuel
without all the mechanical guff associated with better performance...

Has anyone heard of trying it or is there something already on the market.

Surely a pressurised cylinder would be easy to administer. Like I say just thinking aloud.
boyzee is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-18-2012, 09:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,987
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
Why do you think they put nitrous oxide in unlimited hydros, some street racers and other hot rods. Because it provides significant increases in HP. It comes however at a cost. It's not packing more fuel/air into the chamber, which is what supercharging does, it raises the combustion temps so you get much more expansion for the same amount of fuel/air. Higher temps means more wear and tear on the engine. Unlimited hydros with the old aircraft engines only use that nitrous button to accelerate out of a corner and may not use it every time because it seriously cooks the engine.

If you were to inject pure O2, it would more than likely create combustion temps that the combustion chamber bits could not handle. It could potentially cause some of the bits themselves to combust.

regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2012, 04:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
Moto Grand Prix
Main Motorcycle: Triumph TR7
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Norwich, England
Posts: 2,720
Other Motorcycle: T140
Extra Motorcycle: Most of another T140
Neat oxygen is usually stored in bottles at over 2000psi and is extremely dangerous stuff - mere contact with oil, grease or petrol can cause spontaneous combustion. There are all sorts of rules & regulations about handling it, to the point where the regulator threads must never be greased before fitting etc.

Somebody must've tried it somewhere in the world though - I should think their engine got oxidised very rapidly from the inside out!

A pity really, as if it could be made to work, you could theoretically get a 500% power increase!
JohnA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2012, 05:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: t140d
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: nelson nz
Posts: 35
Thanks for replies Snakeoil and John.
When writing this I had a sneaking suspicion Nitrous was similar but reading Snakeoil's reply it is different again.
I was thinking along the lines of more efficient "air management" haveing due regard to small airboxes/filters etc.
Whether its medical O2 or industrial O2 surely you could rig it up to "inject" when inlet valve opens. I mean raising O2 content from 20.9 % (atmosphere) to say 40-50 %.

John correctly pointed out the instability and in the assumption of pressure being 2000 psi. We normally have 200 bar ( medical rescusitator which is'nt huge in the big scheme of things (along with left hand thread for all O2).

Snakeoil , Like you say super chargeing has similar effect (does it ?) as O2 will be 20.9% or less after already been ignited through the chambers. I was thinking of the "idea" of pressurised O2 "injecting itself through Opening/closing valves...

As always respect any input. Cheers in advance
boyzee is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2012, 05:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
New Member
Production 125
Main Motorcycle: 1952 BSA A10 Plunger
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Abernyte
Posts: 7
Other Motorcycle: 1958 Tiger T100
Looking at this thread, my initial thoughts, for what there worth is I think you'll also hit a limit as to how much fuel you can get into the combustion chamber, as well. 5 times more oxidant will require 5 times more fuel, so as well as needing an O2 injection system, you would need a fuel injection system. I wouldn't want a backfire through a carb if you were running on oxygen!
shabashow is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-20-2012, 08:43 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: VFR
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ancaster, UK
Posts: 880
Other Motorcycle: T100S
Real Classic magazine did an article recently about nitrous and Triumphs. Have a look at issue 102
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/aboutfi....html#issue102
__________________
DerryUK

'69 T100S being rebuilt - very s-l-o-w-l-y - some say stopped!
DerryUK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-20-2012, 12:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,987
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by shabashow View Post
Looking at this thread, my initial thoughts, for what there worth is I think you'll also hit a limit as to how much fuel you can get into the combustion chamber, as well. 5 times more oxidant will require 5 times more fuel, so as well as needing an O2 injection system, you would need a fuel injection system. I wouldn't want a backfire through a carb if you were running on oxygen!
This is a key point and I eluded to it when I mentioned fuel/air ratio. You cannot lean out the mixture to the point where it will not combust properly by adding gobs of O2. This is why supercharging works because it increases the airflow thru the carb and hence the fuel flow as well.

So, as Shabashow said, if you are going to inject O2 or Nitrous directly into the intake where it will have no effect on fuel flow, then you need to find a way to increase fuel flow. That would mean putting in much larger jetting for carburetors and would also mean running the gas injection all the time or run fuel injections with a computer that would control both for the proper mixture as well as deal with detonation and such.

It's an interesting thought, but if injecting pure O2 into an engine was a cheap way to make extra ponies, every professional drag racing team would be doing it. I don't think any of them use nitrous either because of the beating the engine takes.

regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-21-2012, 06:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
New Member
Production 125
Main Motorcycle: 1952 BSA A10 Plunger
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Abernyte
Posts: 7
Other Motorcycle: 1958 Tiger T100
You can take the boy out of chemistry, but you cant take the chemistry out of the boy;-)
shabashow is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 02:06 AM   #9 (permalink)
New Member
Minitwins
Main Motorcycle: -
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 19
Combustion in pure oxygen results in much higher temperatures. This is because the inert gasses that comprise 80% of the air we breath act as a sort of coolant, buffer gas to use the technical term. While this significantly reduces the efficiency, the temperature is kept below the melting point of steel.

Rocket engines, the only engines I can think of that run on pure oxygen, have to cool the combustion chamber by circulating the fuel around it before injecting. Most large engines also cool the exhaust nozzle, though some simply melt in a controlled manner.

Nitrous oxide also functions as a coolant. When heated, it decomposes into nitrogen and oxygen in their diatomic forms, absorbing a significant amount of heat in the process. Because the gas resulting from decomposition is 2/3 nitrogen and 1/3 oxygen, you also get a buffer.

If you really want to do this, you will need to know the gas laws, familiarize yourself with molarity, and basically work through a college intro to chemistry book. The math is not nearly as nasty as it looks and you donít have to worry about electron shells or any of the harder stuff.
Stanislao is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 03:23 AM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
World SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 1999 T'Bird Sport
 
lovecuba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rangiora, New Zealand
Posts: 2,030
Extra Motorcycle: 1977 T140
This is How Kiwi's Do it

Interesting power enhancement.
Attached Thumbnails
Horse power-006.jpg   Horse power-007.jpg  
lovecuba is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Horse Power streety Street Triple Forum 11 03-16-2009 09:40 AM
how much horse power Bundyon_Jen Biker Hang-Out 5 04-22-2007 10:08 PM
It is all about the horse power. IamNeighbordave Maintenance & Workshop Talk 7 03-06-2006 10:37 PM
More horse power.... IamNeighbordave Hinckley Classic Triples 12 12-28-2005 01:46 PM
Whose got the highest horse power S3? trypcil Speed Triple Forum 2 08-15-2005 01:54 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:53 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.