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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:57 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loxx101 View Post
This is why people have Boyer units, belt drives, hydraulic clutches, uprated oil pumps, uprated cams etc etc.
Where do we get these uprated oil-pumps,and what possible use are they?Triumph increased the feed plunger slightly for '69 model.It has plenty of oil flow to satisfy two big-end bearings.Morgo copied this and made a plunger pump with equal oil flow.
Pushing more oil through the pump only causes more oil to flow out the relief valve,wasting power and heating the oil in the process.The morgo rotary pump has more flow but isn't user-friendly on a street-bike.Even on a race-bike it creates problems.

I'm not against fitting hotter cams,but often enough it is a mistake.If you mainly ride between 3000-5500 rpm,you'll get more torque more of the time with a slower cam;even slower than standard.The hotter cam becomes useful from 5500-7000 rpm.
When the Bonneville was first released,not everybody liked the engine response.It felt flat at low and mid-range rpm,compared to a T110.T 110 cams are very happy at about 4000 rpm,just like the exhaust cam on a T140.

I'm happy to modify anything,if it's a genuine improvement.Some perceived improvements are only perceived.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:42 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Triton Thrasher View Post
That's why people swear at their Boyer units when the battery gets a bit low.
There is something to be said for a Triumph that starts easily with a 10-year-old stone-flat battery,just because it still has "out-dated,inferior,unreliable" points.

I know of such bikes,and the owners wouldn't fit a Boyer if you paid them.There would be nothing to gain.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:44 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
TritonThrasher - In my opinion, based on a fair bit of experience owning, riding and tinkering with British bikes, they tend to wear out far quicker than Japanese bikes, or European bikes, or cars: can we agree on that? As far as I have figured out, the two main reasons for this marked difference are

(a) the high-performance engines such as T120, T140, Commando etc are overtuned in that they were based on 500cc engines in a far lower state of tune, then gradually enlarged in capacity and more highly tuned. The main bearings in a T140 aren't much bigger than those in a CB125 Honda, for example.

(b) Japanese & European bikes and cars tend to have proper oil filtration (not just tea strainers), together with better oil pumps (trochoidal in most cases), whereas British bikes tend to have virtually no real filtration and inferior pumps.

Despite these inadequacies, British bikes work very well when painstakingly put together with the best quality components, and looked after meticulously. When working to their full potential they are a joy to ride. That's why it is worth taking some trouble to improve them where possible.

It isn't very practicfal to do much about (a) unless you happen to have a full machine shop and a lot of skill and money. But where (b) is concerned it seems that there is scope for improvement without spending a fortune, eg: by using the best available oils, by filtering the oil better, and by increasing oil capacity to enable extended oil change intervals and better cooling.

I am not on an evangelical mission to convert unbelievers so I probably won't pursue this further. I don't really care whether others want to disagree for the hell of it. If they have something useful to say I'd be glad to hear it but I'm not into arguing the toss.
Yes, the old engines wore out fast, even when they were 500cc.

Many Jap engines were much better that way, by the late Sixties.

Modern oil makes a big difference to engine wear.

A return line filter does no harm and must help a bit, even if it only makes the sludge trap take longer to fill.

The Triumph oil pump works well. It has a weakness for dirt in the ball valves, but there is no known cure, apart from using the late 4 valve pump, or not letting dirt loose in the engine- the problem often occurs after needless disturbance of the sump gauze.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:54 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoegaze View Post
Actually, John--One area where I must disagree with you is that regarding the need for large finances or a machine shop in order to build a mill that will last. Triumph engines can be disassembled and reassembled very inexpensively if done so in a careful manner. There are, of course, purpose built tools that are specific to English machines, and these MUST be used, or problems arise. Careful consideration of parts, careful fitment of these parts, and regular, strict maintenance are all that are necessary. Judicious, non-professional mechanics ought never have an issue building a stout Triumph engine if they are careful, and clean EVERYTHING thoroughly.
I agree with all you say, but the point I was trying to make was about making improvements to the fundamental engineering of British engines, eg: making stronger cranks, fitting bigger bearings, making mating surfaces more than a few mm wide etc (have you ever seen the insides of a Honda 90 engine? And their oil capacity? No wonder they never wear out!). Very few people are able to undertake such work, though there are a few geniuses out there who have the idea that a 270 degree crank in their Commando might be interesting, or a V twin B50, then nip out to the shed and make one!

T140s, Commandos etc are amazingly good machines but I can't resist acknowledging that they are living right on the edge of what's possible, and that's because the designs they grew from were never meant to be churning out more than maybe 30 horses. The upgrades made to strengthen them as their power outputs increased were not in proportion. The Commando Combat produces more than double the power of the old 88 engine, without doubling the strength and safety margin of its components.

Like bumble bees, they shouldn't really work, but they do and beautifully - as long as they're built and maintained as you say.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:04 PM   #55 (permalink)
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A lot of Japanese bikes didn't last all that long back when I was first riding in the 70's. Everyone raves about Honda reliability, but they had plenty of cam chain and valve issues on a number of models. Reliability and high mileage capabilities really seemed to come into it's own on 4 cylinder bikes. Bikes like Kawasaki's KZ900/1000/650 models seemed to be able to suddenly run for huge miles and suddenly 12.000 miles was no longer considered high mileage. These were the first types of bikes I recall with a proper oil filter in addition to their great basic design. When I started working, in the UK after finishing my degree in 82, our company cars were changed at 60k miles, but very soon after that 100k was easily achieved reliably. Now 200k can be achieved in most vehicles if they are maintained and not prematurely destroyed by overheating or similar - it's now pretty hard to wear an engine out. While there have been many advances in technology, materials and manufacturing tolerances, it's my belief that the huge improvement in oil quality has played a massive part in the low wear levels we see today, oil has come on in leaps and bounds since the late 70's early 80's. If we use good modern oil and add decent filtration, so we are not recirculating carbon etc. through the bearings, then I think it's possible for us to see mileages that could never have been imagined back in the 70's from our classic Triumph. This is even more so the case, when coupled with other generous maintenance we do and the fact that most of us are just a little more mature these days and so show a little more restraint with the throttle and revs - a lot of the early failures of the less sturdy engine parts, back in the day, were undoubtedly the result of the hard riding style of the younger riders who owned Triumphs then.

Last edited by redhawk4; 11-28-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:20 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Pete View Post
Where do we get these uprated oil-pumps,and what possible use are they?Triumph increased the feed plunger slightly for '69 model.It has plenty of oil flow to satisfy two big-end bearings.Morgo copied this and made a plunger pump with equal oil flow.
Pushing more oil through the pump only causes more oil to flow out the relief valve,wasting power and heating the oil in the process.The morgo rotary pump has more flow but isn't user-friendly on a street-bike.Even on a race-bike it creates problems.

I'm not against fitting hotter cams,but often enough it is a mistake.If you mainly ride between 3000-5500 rpm,you'll get more torque more of the time with a slower cam;even slower than standard.The hotter cam becomes useful from 5500-7000 rpm.
When the Bonneville was first released,not everybody liked the engine response.It felt flat at low and mid-range rpm,compared to a T110.T 110 cams are very happy at about 4000 rpm,just like the exhaust cam on a T140.

I'm happy to modify anything,if it's a genuine improvement.Some perceived improvements are only perceived.
I was under the impression that the Morgo was an improvement. I have the later Triumph stock 4 valve one, is that the same then?

I didn't know about the oil pump business until recently. Learning all the time

Triumph didn't get it all right though. If they did, they would still be making the same thing now. All the other companies would have copied them too.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:08 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I think the morgo is a better product than the Triumph one, even the later one (anecdotal)

morgo are actually a CNC based manufacturer and the pumps are far better made than th mass produced original.

maybe there's nothing wrong with the Triumph one, but it was am old design, made on old equipment, to less demanding tolerances
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:12 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVE M View Post
I think the morgo is a better product than the Triumph one, even the later one (anecdotal)

morgo are actually a CNC based manufacturer and the pumps are far better made than th mass produced original.

maybe there's nothing wrong with the Triumph one, but it was am old design, made on old equipment, to less demanding tolerances
After reading all about the Morgo Pump if I end up rebuilding my 1965T120R that is for sure what I am replacing the old one with. Might as well since it will hall be open anyway.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:36 AM   #59 (permalink)
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All good points you make, there. Yes; the Hondas of the 1980s--especially, are nigh bulletproof. So many can be left neglected for years, and tick right over on the first crank with fresh petrol and a good charge. They were stout, indeed, and much can be learned from them. Machining tolerances have gotten so good these days, that as previously mentioned, engines stay together for far longer now.
People often fail to realise how hard even a modest engine works. At 3000RPM, the crankshaft is spinning at 50 revolutions per second! It's an amazing feat, and no matter how many engines I dig into I never cease to be amazed by how well they hold up--considering the physics involved. It is surprising that the main journals were not increased in direct proportion to the uprated power output, as you mention. Everything has its price point, and this must have been a factor.

This is why, despite its criticism from so many folks at the outset, I have always appreciated the new Bonneville's prodigiousness. John Bloor's engineering team looked at what worked, and what could be significantly improved upon. They maintained, to the best of their ability, a design that captured the main essence of the original layout in terms of form, and kept the fantastic, quirky 360 degree crank throw--the quintessential English characteristic. So what if the 790/865 runs a Kawasaki-inspired valvetrain? It works well, and is very low maintenance. These beefy new engines can withstand ritual, merciless neck-ringing with nary a complaint, mile after mile. Despite all this, I still rather enjoy the originals, regardless the occasional Achilles' heel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
I agree with all you say, but the point I was trying to make was about making improvements to the fundamental engineering of British engines, eg: making stronger cranks, fitting bigger bearings, making mating surfaces more than a few mm wide etc (have you ever seen the insides of a Honda 90 engine? And their oil capacity? No wonder they never wear out!). Very few people are able to undertake such work, though there are a few geniuses out there who have the idea that a 270 degree crank in their Commando might be interesting, or a V twin B50, then nip out to the shed and make one!

T140s, Commandos etc are amazingly good machines but I can't resist acknowledging that they are living right on the edge of what's possible, and that's because the designs they grew from were never meant to be churning out more than maybe 30 horses. The upgrades made to strengthen them as their power outputs increased were not in proportion. The Commando Combat produces more than double the power of the old 88 engine, without doubling the strength and safety margin of its components.

Like bumble bees, they shouldn't really work, but they do and beautifully - as long as they're built and maintained as you say.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:23 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DAVE M View Post
I think the morgo is a better product than the Triumph one, even the later one (anecdotal)

morgo are actually a CNC based manufacturer and the pumps are far better made than th mass produced original.

maybe there's nothing wrong with the Triumph one, but it was am old design, made on old equipment, to less demanding tolerances
Nobody can tell if the Morgo is better than the two valve Triumph one, because they behave exactly alike in service. That's actually pretty good performance for patent bolt-on goodies: it doesn't make things worse!

It would be crazy to replace a Triumph four valve T140 pump with something other than a Triumph four valve pump.
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