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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:35 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loxx101 View Post
Triumph didn't get everything perfectly right, that's the thing! Changing things to make it better can only be a good thing.

This is why people have Boyer units, belt drives, hydraulic clutches, uprated oil pumps, uprated cams etc etc.
Changing things is not always for the better. That's why people swear at their Boyer units when the battery gets a bit low. The best result you'll ever get from an "uprated" Triumph oil pump is exactly the same riding experience you had with the original oil pump.

Changing cams is usually a compromise. It's hard to gain much power somewhere without losing power somewhere else in the rpm range, although the T140 is a better candidate for camshaft change than most bikes.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:33 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Changing things isn't always for the better, but neither is leaving things as they come! Surely nobody can honestly believe that there is no scope for improvement on standard spec on old Triumphs? The lubrication system on OIF triumph twins, as well as most other British bikes, is barely adequate at best. Anything that can be done to improve it is worth doing as far as I can see.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:48 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The lubrication system on OIF triumph twins, as well as most other British bikes, is barely adequate at best. Anything that can be done to improve it is worth doing as far as I can see.
There is no place for such rhetoric in a garage.

What are you going to change, what improvement will it make and how?

I have found that T140 might give you problems, but they won't be lubrication problems. Tell me about your experience, if it's different from that. Thanks.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:11 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
The lubrication system on OIF triumph twins, as well as most other British bikes, is barely adequate at best.
It was,and still is,the "most other British bikes" that had the barely adequate lubrication.
The Triumph plunger oil pump worked fine,and still does.With regular clean oil,a Triumph bottom end can run a long time without attention.I know of one case where the bottom end had never been opened at 180,000 miles,and still going OK.It wasn't OIF,it was a '69 T120R.That was in the days before spin-on filters in return lines.Adequate enough,in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with return line filters,and some improvement.It should actually catch everything before it ever gets back to the tank.An in-tank filter,like the B25,would then stay clean and never become restrictive.

Last edited by Mr.Pete; 11-27-2012 at 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:26 PM   #45 (permalink)
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TritonThrasher - In my opinion, based on a fair bit of experience owning, riding and tinkering with British bikes, they tend to wear out far quicker than Japanese bikes, or European bikes, or cars: can we agree on that? As far as I have figured out, the two main reasons for this marked difference are

(a) the high-performance engines such as T120, T140, Commando etc are overtuned in that they were based on 500cc engines in a far lower state of tune, then gradually enlarged in capacity and more highly tuned. The main bearings in a T140 aren't much bigger than those in a CB125 Honda, for example.

(b) Japanese & European bikes and cars tend to have proper oil filtration (not just tea strainers), together with better oil pumps (trochoidal in most cases), whereas British bikes tend to have virtually no real filtration and inferior pumps.

Despite these inadequacies, British bikes work very well when painstakingly put together with the best quality components, and looked after meticulously. When working to their full potential they are a joy to ride. That's why it is worth taking some trouble to improve them where possible.

It isn't very practicfal to do much about (a) unless you happen to have a full machine shop and a lot of skill and money. But where (b) is concerned it seems that there is scope for improvement without spending a fortune, eg: by using the best available oils, by filtering the oil better, and by increasing oil capacity to enable extended oil change intervals and better cooling.

I am not on an evangelical mission to convert unbelievers so I probably won't pursue this further. I don't really care whether others want to disagree for the hell of it. If they have something useful to say I'd be glad to hear it but I'm not into arguing the toss.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:20 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Actually, John--you bring up some fantastic points, and I assure you (at least by me) all are well taken. There will assuredly be no arguing the toss with me.

One area where I must disagree with you is that regarding the need for large finances or a machine shop in order to build a mill that will last. Triumph engines can be disassembled and reassembled very inexpensively if done so in a careful manner. There are, of course, purpose built tools that are specific to English machines, and these MUST be used, or problems arise. Careful consideration of parts, careful fitment of these parts, and regular, strict maintenance are all that are necessary. Judicious, non-professional mechanics ought never have an issue building a stout Triumph engine if they are careful, and clean EVERYTHING thoroughly.
After all, among the MANY fine machines that England made, Triumph is arguably the most prolific and recognised for a reason. They built a fantastic mill, and even in this high-tech world we find ourselves living in, Ed Turner's legacy remains a fantastic engineering feat for the generations. To hell with the CB750!
Cheers, and thank you for your thoughtful post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
TritonThrasher - In my opinion, based on a fair bit of experience owning, riding and tinkering with British bikes, they tend to wear out far quicker than Japanese bikes, or European bikes, or cars: can we agree on that? As far as I have figured out, the two main reasons for this marked difference are

(a) the high-performance engines such as T120, T140, Commando etc are overtuned in that they were based on 500cc engines in a far lower state of tune, then gradually enlarged in capacity and more highly tuned. The main bearings in a T140 aren't much bigger than those in a CB125 Honda, for example.

(b) Japanese & European bikes and cars tend to have proper oil filtration (not just tea strainers), together with better oil pumps (trochoidal in most cases), whereas British bikes tend to have virtually no real filtration and inferior pumps.

Despite these inadequacies, British bikes work very well when painstakingly put together with the best quality components, and looked after meticulously. When working to their full potential they are a joy to ride. That's why it is worth taking some trouble to improve them where possible.

It isn't very practicfal to do much about (a) unless you happen to have a full machine shop and a lot of skill and money. But where (b) is concerned it seems that there is scope for improvement without spending a fortune, eg: by using the best available oils, by filtering the oil better, and by increasing oil capacity to enable extended oil change intervals and better cooling.

I am not on an evangelical mission to convert unbelievers so I probably won't pursue this further. I don't really care whether others want to disagree for the hell of it. If they have something useful to say I'd be glad to hear it but I'm not into arguing the toss.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Bundy
To hell with the CB750!
Agreed!
Got everything but sex appeal
Hot chicks always hop on Triumph when they need a 'ride'.

!
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:37 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Well said, Loxx. When changes truly ARE better it is of course a good thing. The problem is that a tremendous amount of R&D went into these engines. Ed Turner did not continue along the same platform for so long because he and his colleagues were too lazy to come up with something better; they stayed with it because it worked (and herein lies the tricky nature of dissecting a proven design). I'm no engineer. I'm also not the dullest knife in the drawer, either, but in order for me to make informed decisions, I must be...well--informed. I have no flow bench, I have no machines to lay waste to, and I have no dyno.

Therefore, the good lot of us (and everyone knows that Triumph owners are more intelligent than the sum of all other make's riders combined!) await empirical data to draw conclusions from.
I agree that good changes can and have been made, and I'm no purist in terms of keeping things 100% original. I appreciate the blokes who keep on track 100%, as preserving things is vital to history, but it's not my row to hoe--indeed. Change for the sake of improvement ALWAYS moves us in the right direction. Change for the sake of change is a nail in the coffin of every man.

I'm enjoying your very well thought out posts.

Cheers-


Quote:
Originally Posted by loxx101 View Post
Triumph didn't get everything perfectly right, that's the thing! Changing things to make it better can only be a good thing.

This is why people have Boyer units, belt drives, hydraulic clutches, uprated oil pumps, uprated cams etc etc.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:42 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Well you know what they say:
CB750s HAD to be fast, as they were so difficult to gaze upon!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris the Cat View Post
Agreed!
Got everything but sex appeal
Hot chicks always hop on Triumph when they need a 'ride'.

!
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:49 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I must simply say that this thread just keeps getting better and better. A whole lot of interesting, insightful coments are being made, and I feel I'm all the better for reading each one.

Cheers--all, and keep it coming.
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