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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 11-27-2012, 05:46 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris the Cat View Post
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...mT326lIYprdDrg


ALL NEW FRAME & RUNNING GEAR
The 1971 Triumph Bonneville oil-in-frame and TR6 (also oil-in-frame) got an entirely new one-piece, all-welded steel frame that held the engine oil in its huge 3" diameter backbone, instead of in a separate oil tank, as before. Great idea in concept, but somehow the boys at Umberslade Hall couldn't figure out how to keep the oil from foaming & so relocated the oil filler cap from just behind the steering head to just under the nose of the seat, lowering the oil level & abandoning all that internal volume in the large portion of the backbone under the tank. So this enormous 'drain pipe' of a backbone that was supposed to be filled with oil was now filled about halfway, leaving the new bike woefully in short supply. Another big problem with the new Triumph Bonneville oil-in-frame was that it raised the seat height to 32-1/2", too tall for many riders.
Well quoted Morris! Reducing oil capacity while increasing engine capacity and power (when the T140 was released) can only be viewed as a backward step. Triumph got away with it (just) but this doesn't mean no attempt should be made today to recognise the inadequacies of the T140 lubrication system and come up with ingenious ways of improving it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:42 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Hi John A,

Question here is why was it foaming and where was the return line (and how was it) plumbed into the 'scud missle' tube?

Desperate times call for desperate measures it would seem?

My return line is a clear line so as to keep an eye on it when oil pump paranoia sets in!

Fun (?) to watch, it pulses like a heartbeat.

Just read Bert Hopwood's book and gleaned an excerpt from page 176 regarding Triumph's oil pump:

Quote:
I would have preferred the new engine to have been endowed with an oil pump which would have obviated the problems associated with that sometimes temperamental horror which is a feature of all Triumphs, but Turner dug in his heels. I had many other problems on my hands, so without more ado it was not long before we had prototypes running on test and were planning production for September, just eight months from the point of conceptual design. However, once the new engine was fitted into the frame, which was also of new design, it proved to be a real shaker. Time was not in our favour, yet our development team, then headed by the great Frank Baker, managed to compromise with a passable degree of roughness which we knew that the public would accept.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:31 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Filter Elements (Charlie)

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Originally Posted by lovecuba View Post
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Seeing as the engine will be fully overhauled and I have had the frame blasted have ordered the '«harlie' filter from Tri-Cor. Cheap insurance? So, along with the Norton style filter on the other side of the pump, I'll have the cleanest oil in Kiwi Land, Bonnie wise!
Can anyone advise if the element has a common number or use in other vehicles. I would like to be able to have a go at sourcing them out here.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:36 AM   #74 (permalink)
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which one?

the charlie's, norton, or both/

the Charlie's as a B25 BSA filter, the Other ( I think) is a 2cv filter. I'd need to look at the number on mine.

Plewsy fitted a smaller filter to his bike and if you watch the video, you can freeze frame and read the number. Or I think I asked him the number in his thread on the video
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:24 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris the Cat View Post
Hi John A,

Question here is why was it foaming and where was the return line (and how was it) plumbed into the 'scud missle' tube?
It would be interesting to know the answer to that. The Adventurer/B50 frames had the filler up by the steering head and as far as I know never had any problems caused by frothing - and that can;t simply have been due to the gear pump used on the 250 & 500 singles, as the Adventurer had the same old plunger pump. I can only guess that whatever the problem was with the prototype T120 (and presumably the A65), it could have been solved with a bit more work, but doing what they actually did was easier, quicker and cheaper? That attitude seems to have been prevalent at the time.

They got away with it, kind of. But I wouldn't be surprised if the timing side bearing failures that were quite common were at least partly due to oil breaking down due to so little of it circulating. Those failures were blamed on various things including the increased pounding the bottom end took when enlarged to 750, and on inferior cages that were spot-welded together. Some truth in both I'm sure, but probably also some truth in less than ideal lubrication?

I'm sure there is plenty of scope for increasing engine longevity through improvements to the lubrication system.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:37 AM   #76 (permalink)
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But I wouldn't be surprised if the timing side bearing failures that were quite common were at least partly due to oil breaking down due to so little of it circulating. Those failures were blamed on various things including the increased pounding the bottom end took when enlarged to 750, and on inferior cages that were spot-welded together. Some truth in both I'm sure, but probably also some truth in less than ideal lubrication?
The metric timing-side bearing was just inferior (but cheaper and more readily obtainable) compared to the imperial bearing it replaced in late '72.If you look at them side by side it's obvious.

The oil temperature rarely ever gets to the ideal 180 degree F. or so;oil temperature would not be a problem.Ball bearings can run OK with cold oil.They are not as dirt susceptible as plain bearings.

Any dirt that made it through the sludge-trap is likely to get embedded in the big-end shells.Again,no problem;Triumph crankpins last forever with any continuous oil supply.

Detonation is more likely to be the real issue.If the T140 had more low-end torque than a T120,it was more likely to be lugged at low rpm.With an AAU that gave full advance below 3000 rpm,sometimes as low as 2000 rpm,detonation was a problem and the US had lousy unleaded fuel from '72 (more detonation likelyhood).

Detonation will really hammer internal engine parts.The easiest fix with a weaker timing side ball bearing was to lower the compression ratio.That alone wasn't enough,so a hotter intake cam (compared to T120) and retarded intake timing lowered cylinder pressure even more.A good deal of the intake charge was blown back into the intake port,before the intake valve closed.

At high rpm (above 5500) intake reversion wouldn't happen,but detonation was not a problem at higher rpm.

I think the US market wanted a 750,but Triumph wanted to make sure it wasn't more powerful than the T120.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:04 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Filter

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Originally Posted by DAVE M View Post
which one?

the charlie's, norton, or both/

the Charlie's as a B25 BSA filter, the Other ( I think) is a 2cv filter. I'd need to look at the number on mine.

Plewsy fitted a smaller filter to his bike and if you watch the video, you can freeze frame and read the number. Or I think I asked him the number in his thread on the video
The B25 BSA filter. Is it common to other applications?
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #78 (permalink)
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I always buy in bulk, so I have a spare in the garage.

I can measure one for you but it'd be at the weekend.

at a guess £5-7.50
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:55 PM   #79 (permalink)
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So... to reignite the Kirby Rowbotham debate...

I've noticed a lot of OIF riders talking about the system and it's pros and cons, but what about non-OIF? I'm a novice, learning as I go, running a 67 T120R... just wondering if a non-OIF bike changes the debate?

Currently looking into any kind of "upgrade" I could do to the sump filter... I figure that would be a good way to make sure the oil remained as clean as possible when it goes back into the pump and then to the tank. Thoughts?
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:25 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I looked deeply into this issue and finally fitted a spin on filter in the return line.
So long as the pump is fed clean oil from a clean tank it seems the logical way to go as the oil is filtered hot and nasty straight from the engine before it is returned to the tank.
That means the contaminants are removed at source whilst the oil is at it's hottest and what goes back to tank is clean filtered oil ready for it's next circulation and the crap stays in the filter and doesn't just settle to the bottom of the tank.
The filter itself also does a fair job of cooling the oil too as it has a large surface area.

davy

Last edited by Old Cafe Racer; 01-23-2013 at 10:29 PM.
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