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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:42 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk4 View Post
Loxx that's interesting, you'd think that set up would be more restrictive than the Charlies filter because you have only the small inlet pipe into the filter rather than the filter being immersed in a bath of oil.
I see where you are coming from however the fluid head would be the same, filter size is larger so would probably be less restrictive and the tubing to it is the same size as the suction pipework. I imagine it would be the same, if not better. Would depend on the quality of the filter as cheaper ones may not flow as well.

It is indeed a very interesting subject to me. As I say, the fact that my mate has been running them for as long as I've been alive like that means in practice is must be actually fine.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:23 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Made my own version of the "Charlies Filter" (already posted in another thread:

http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vi...ml#post2316873

Oil pressure runs a wisker over 40psi at idle and 80 beyond. No issues so far, and port opening on mine is 15mm. As the port is larger diameter, volume of flow can increase, but "head pressure" decreases. As I promised in the other thread, next oil change (soon now), will meter time for complete drain when cold. Will try and measure when ambient is in the 30's if we ever get to the point once more. Prior oil changes there has been no reduction in flow at all though.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:22 AM   #63 (permalink)
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U got Me Thinking!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triton Thrasher View Post
If the frame has been grit blasted, you have no choice but to use the Charlie's filter, or get another frame.

The KR conversion will not protect the oil pump from grit. You will never get the inside of the frame clean of grit. Never.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Seeing as the engine will be fully overhauled and I have had the frame blasted have ordered the '«harlie' filter from Tri-Cor. Cheap insurance? So, along with the Norton style filter on the other side of the pump, I'll have the cleanest oil in Kiwi Land, Bonnie wise!
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:27 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Great post. I, too would like hard figures, but I suspect I'll be trusting my gut on this one--for a little while, anyway.

Cheers-

Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk4 View Post
I just bought my first Trumph a 73 TR7V after 38 years of motorcycling. Having worked on motorcycle engines since age 16, mostly Japanese, the thought of no oil filter makes me wince. Some of the earlier smaller Japanese engines did not run proper oil filters in the early 70's and it seems when they began to do so, was when the durability of their motors improved dramatically. I have been looking at the various options for filters and so this thread immediately caught my interest. It seems to me that the Charlies filter is ideally located to prevent anything from getting into the motor in the first place, it is only the concern over lack of flow that is an issue. On most motors the filter is after the oil pump but before the oil is circulated keeping debris out of the engine bearings and often some kind of bypass is there so oil can still circulate if the filter blocks. Personally I've never had or seen anything approaching a blocked filter in almost 40 years because I've always been a stickler for regular oil changes usually at far less than the recommended mileage. I'm not really concerned with the Charlies type filter blocking so much as it restricting flow from the outset. It occurs to me that the flow rate could be easily checked to settle the "argument" over whether the oil pump is actually sucking oil through the filter or flow is sufficient through the medium for it to be gravity fed, but it would require a volunteer with a Charlies filter fitted. If at oil change time the pipe was removed from the bottom of the unit, so the oil was drained through the filter the flow could be measured in terms of how long it takes to drain of pint of oil and then this could be compared to how many gph the oil pump can circulate. To me the filter medium surface area looks pretty large and the head of oil pretty tall compared to the size of the outlet. At start up the filter should already be full of oil and the filter medium wet through, although cold starts with cold oil in the tank and high rpm's that some use to get a cold blooded motor up and running would seem to be the worst case scenario for this type of filter, so I'm still somewhat on the fence on this one.

Given the use of two pumps, could a Charlies filter be used with a return filter as well? That way you keep any debris from getting into the motor out of the oil tank, and keep any debris which might clog the Charlies filter from getting into the oil tank. This is unlikely to be needed on a well maintained motor with regular oil changes, but if something starts to go awry in the motor, not circulating debris into the oil tank would be beneficial and you would get the benefits of the extra oil capacity that the spin on filter also brings.

I'm all ears for a conclusion to the thread as I want to order a filter set up ASAP. Has anyone tried checking the flow rate of a Charlies filter by removing the feed pipe and letting the oil drain when cold? this seems to be where the answer would lie for me.

Apologies for my first post being such an essay
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:37 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Well, now--that's commitment, and a tough act to follow. I won't be taking it that far, I don't think. A little grit, pinned in place by very strong hard drive magnets and decent filtration ought to nullify any ill-effects. I will be rinsing out the maintube after the frame returns from powdercoating, and I'll blow all the lines free, and hunt round with a telescopic magnet, but that's all.
Cheers-


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecuba View Post
I had my OIF frame sand blasted and spent quite some time concerned about grit retention. That is until a friend turned up with petrol powered water blaster with a flexible hose attached to the nozzle (he is a Plumber). The nozzle could be set for 'jet' action or spray and was ultra powerful. We used this contraption for some time giving the hollow frame a real going over. Then we inserted high powered light on another flexible shaft that was attached to a small TV screen and could see every nook and cranny. Clean as a whistle!
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:04 AM   #66 (permalink)
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that's assuming that your grit is magnetic, of course.

filtering is safer than magnetic attraction. Sand/glass aluminium/general crud isn't magnetic
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:02 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Oh, I'll be filtering, as well. I am a routine oil changer, and keep my machines fastidiously clean. Ideally, I'd like to simplify oil changes with a high flow, heavy duty external filter and no "gravel catcher", so I do not have to pull the bung plate at each change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVE M View Post
that's assuming that your grit is magnetic, of course.

filtering is safer than magnetic attraction. Sand/glass aluminium/general crud isn't magnetic
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:31 PM   #68 (permalink)
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...mT326lIYprdDrg


ALL NEW FRAME & RUNNING GEAR
The 1971 Triumph Bonneville oil-in-frame and TR6 (also oil-in-frame) got an entirely new one-piece, all-welded steel frame that held the engine oil in its huge 3" diameter backbone, instead of in a separate oil tank, as before. Great idea in concept, but somehow the boys at Umberslade Hall couldn't figure out how to keep the oil from foaming & so relocated the oil filler cap from just behind the steering head to just under the nose of the seat, lowering the oil level & abandoning all that internal volume in the large portion of the backbone under the tank. So this enormous 'drain pipe' of a backbone that was supposed to be filled with oil was now filled about halfway, leaving the new bike woefully in short supply. Another big problem with the new Triumph Bonneville oil-in-frame was that it raised the seat height to 32-1/2", too tall for many riders.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:07 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris the Cat View Post
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...mT326lIYprdDrg


ALL NEW FRAME & RUNNING GEAR
The 1971 Triumph Bonneville oil-in-frame and TR6 (also oil-in-frame) got an entirely new one-piece, all-welded steel frame that held the engine oil in its huge 3" diameter backbone, instead of in a separate oil tank, as before. Great idea in concept, but somehow the boys at Umberslade Hall couldn't figure out how to keep the oil from foaming & so relocated the oil filler cap from just behind the steering head to just under the nose of the seat, lowering the oil level & abandoning all that internal volume in the large portion of the backbone under the tank. So this enormous 'drain pipe' of a backbone that was supposed to be filled with oil was now filled about halfway, leaving the new bike woefully in short supply. Another big problem with the new Triumph Bonneville oil-in-frame was that it raised the seat height to 32-1/2", too tall for many riders.
It's easy to write that sort of stuff and no doubt some of it is true, but let's face it, the oil,capacity is not "woefully short." A bit more wouldn't hurt, but why exaggerate?

The usual bad effect of oil frothing is air bubbles being drawn out of the bottom of the tank, to the oil pump. That would of course be made worse by lowering the oil level in the tank.

As for seat height, some people didn't like it in 1971, but many successful more recent bikes have higher seats.

The problem with the 1971 bikes was that they changed almost everything, without any improvement and some deterioration from the 1970 bikes. It was a bad mix of badly attempted trendy looks, old hat specification and deteriorating build quality. The Honda Four had classic looks, state of the art engine and the very important attribute of high speed stamina.

Were Triumph incapable of designing and making a bike that could be held flat out on the road, without large pieces falling off? If so, what possible chance did they have in the marketplace?
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoegaze View Post
Well, now--that's commitment, and a tough act to follow. I won't be taking it that far, I don't think. A little grit, pinned in place by very strong hard drive magnets and decent filtration ought to nullify any ill-effects. I will be rinsing out the maintube after the frame returns from powdercoating, and I'll blow all the lines free, and hunt round with a telescopic magnet, but that's all.
Cheers-
I did grit blasting for a bit. The stuff we used was copper slag, ie: not magnetic. Some places use sand. I would think it unwise to rely on magnets to protect your engine oil, no matter how strong.
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