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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 11-25-2012, 11:07 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I'll have to dig my pump and cam wheel out later (or tomrorow) and have a measure up.

Surely if the inlet hole doesn't have a non return in it then the pump COULD suck (if it was set up to go past the inlet hole) and you would get flow both ways in the feed line. That could be counter productive.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:31 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by loxx101 View Post
I'll have to dig my pump and cam wheel out later (or tomrorow) and have a measure up.

Surely if the inlet hole doesn't have a non return in it then the pump COULD suck (if it was set up to go past the inlet hole) and you would get flow both ways in the feed line. That could be counter productive.
Scuse me gents. Don't know if this is helpful or interesting, but:

On the feed side of the oil pump, the ball and spring in the pump stops the plunger sucking oil back from the crank feed as the plunger rises.

It causes a bit of a vacuum in the pump until the plunger uncovers the port in the pump bore that lets oil in from the tank. The plunger rises a little further and sucks more oil in.

When the plunger comes down, at first it forces a little oil back toward the tank, via the port, until the plunger covers the port. Then the continuing downward motion of the plunger forces the oil in the bottom of the pump bore out through the ball valve (or 2 valves in tandem on late bikes), to the relief valve and crank feed.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:41 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Sorry, I didn't mean the feed line, I meant the suction.

Yeah, that answers exactly what I was going to measure up. Cheers!
I want to get a suction gauge now just for interest.

As the pump does actually suck I would say it's safe to put a filter on the suction line.

Does anyone know if people do a high flow oil pump? I imagine putting a set of NRVs on the currently open ports would jack the flow up considerably.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:11 PM   #44 (permalink)
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the standard morgo is a bit higher - probably due to better engineering.

there's a high output pump that isn't really recommended for road bikes, you need to do a bit of dremeling to the case and it's said that adding the pump can expose all the leaky joints that were previously ok
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:58 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Yeah, I am talking about literally adding in non return valves though on the scavenge suction and the feed suction. If the oil flows both ways due to the pump lifting above the hole, putting an nrv there would stop the oil from flowing back out meaning it would pressurise earlier. That would make the standard pump just have slightly higher output. Out of interest I may look into this.

If your gaskets leak, put new gaskets on, you need them anyway
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:10 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I'm something of a parvenu, so I may have the wrong end of the stick.

Putting a filter or any potential restriction in the line from the oil tank to the feed side of the pump is bad practice. The Charlie's filter in the bottom of the frame seems to give good service, even though it is theoretically bad practice, but it's different, sitting there immersed under the head of the oil level. The usual place to put an aftermarket filter on old dry sump bikes is in the scavenge line. On a T140, it is easier to fit a Charlie's, so many owners do that.

Plumbing a separate filter, such as a Commando one, into the feed line is a bit dodgier. Any air leaks at the extra hose joints or the filter O-ring could mean the pump draws air instead of oil. A dirty filter building up resistance to flow could cause the hose to collapse under vacuum. The thing is, even if you see these risks as small, you're getting no advantage. You may theorise that it's a "better" place to filter the oil, but it won't improve your riding experience, compared to filtering the scavenge.

Putting the filter between the oil feed pump and the relief valve is theoretically not bad, although it still leaves the pump at the mercy of any dirt in the oil. It has to introduce a fair bit of extra plumbing, all at full oil pressure. If you get a leak there, it'll be a big one.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Yeah, I am talking about literally adding in non return valves though on the scavenge suction and the feed suction. If the oil flows both ways due to the pump lifting above the hole, putting an nrv there would stop the oil from flowing back out meaning it would pressurise earlier. That would make the standard pump just have slightly higher output. Out of interest I may look into this.

That might work, in that there might be more oil flow. Whether that's a good thing or not, we don't know yet. Good luck.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:28 PM   #48 (permalink)
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IF the filter ever does block though and it's before the pressure relief, the pump will carry on regardless and split something somewhere. Positive displacement pumps really don't get on well with dead heading. You'll damage something. Probably just a hose but you'll have full pressure oil going everywhere and no lubrication to the engine. Depending on the pressure rating of the hose you use, you could exploit a weak point in a casting or something which would be considerably worse.

Of course the chances of the filter actually blocking is low but it's possible. If it's just clogged up a bit you'll be putting that line under a huge amount more stress which is a whole lot more likely.

Filter post relief valve ftw!
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:35 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Filter post relief valve ftw!
That wouldn't be full flow filtering.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
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That wouldn't be full flow filtering.
How come? You would just have to reroute your oil system a bit which would be easy enough if you wanted the filter on the pressure side, pre crank. It would be the same as putting a filter on the scavenge as far as full flow goes.

I doubt having extra flow would benefit to be fair, I just think it would interesting to work out how it would affect everything. Depending on the size of the pots on the feed/scavenge/internal position of suction holes in the pump, it could alter things a fair bit. Probably pointless though! Wouldn't have been hard for Triumph to install NRVs if it were going to improve the lubrication system. Over-oiling could even hinder performance.

Thinking out loud too much. I'll stop now
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