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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 11-24-2012, 07:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loxx101 View Post

Putting a filter in pre pump could restrict flow.
Yes, but the system I'm talking about doesn't place the filter pre-pump, it places the filter between the pump and the crank. Just like Jap bikes, Ducatis, BMWs and just about all cars and trucks. If you let crap get into your oil tank it could get past the strainer at the bottom of the tank and damage the oil pump, but it won;t get any further. This type of filter doesn't do anything to increase the risk of crap getting to the pump, but it does eliminate the risk of crap getting anywhere more important.

Just to be on the safe side, I have a B25 filter in the frame (bought from TMS) as well as a Kirby Rowbotham filter. The reason being that I had loads of British bikes between the ages of 17 and 25, then loads of Japanese bikes up to about age 40, then several European bikes up to last year, then back to Triumphs again. Through all this use and serious abuse of motorcycles it has dawned on me that the most significant difference between British and all other engines is the oil filtration. Hence my double-filter system now.

I'm sure a filter on the return line is a lot better than nothing, but on the feed side, the oil is not only under constant pressure and with a totally full filter, but the filter is catching everything that you wouldn't want circulating around your engine, before it enters the return line. Kirby Rowbotham's own tests have shown what he describes as half a teaspoon of sludge in the crank sludge trap after 100,000 miles on this system. It makes sense to me anyway!
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Fascinating! Do post a link, if you please--or perhaps some personal photos of this Charlie's Filter. It's sounding better and better.
Cheers-

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Originally Posted by DAVE M View Post
what you're suggesting is exactly what a "Charlie's" filter is.

It's a B25 filter (that was considered for the T120'40 apparently) shoved up the bottom of the tube.

I had an incident (partly my fault) where the rust from the unused part of the frame was washed down into the main tank. The Charlies filter caught the stuff but a post pump filter would have been too late.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:12 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Two filters, no less? Very interesting...And you've experienced no reduction in oil flow? Tell me--have you kept the oil screen in place?
Thank you, and cheers-

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Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
Yes, but the system I'm talking about doesn't place the filter pre-pump, it places the filter between the pump and the crank. Just like Jap bikes, Ducatis, BMWs and just about all cars and trucks. If you let crap get into your oil tank it could get past the strainer at the bottom of the tank and damage the oil pump, but it won;t get any further. This type of filter doesn't do anything to increase the risk of crap getting to the pump, but it does eliminate the risk of crap getting anywhere more important.

Just to be on the safe side, I have a B25 filter in the frame (bought from TMS) as well as a Kirby Rowbotham filter. The reason being that I had loads of British bikes between the ages of 17 and 25, then loads of Japanese bikes up to about age 40, then several European bikes up to last year, then back to Triumphs again. Through all this use and serious abuse of motorcycles it has dawned on me that the most significant difference between British and all other engines is the oil filtration. Hence my double-filter system now.

I'm sure a filter on the return line is a lot better than nothing, but on the feed side, the oil is not only under constant pressure and with a totally full filter, but the filter is catching everything that you wouldn't want circulating around your engine, before it enters the return line. Kirby Rowbotham's own tests have shown what he describes as half a teaspoon of sludge in the crank sludge trap after 100,000 miles on this system. It makes sense to me anyway!
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:20 PM   #34 (permalink)
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No, the B25 paper filter replaces the original oil strainer/screen. Once fully wetted (ie: moments after the tank is filled) the paper filter doesn't restict oil flow, as long as it is not clogged with crap. Obviously it is very imprtant to never let it get clogged with crap, which could happen more easily than a standard strainer. But with the big, feed-line filter, there's no reason why crap should accumulate at anything like the rate it does without it.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:30 PM   #35 (permalink)
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A very good point--that. I'm growing to appreciate the B25 system more and more, as I read various glowing reviews on the subject. Your application of both filters is no less appealing, as long as flow to the crank bearings and top end are uninhibited.
It sounds as if you've given this issue much thought, and have been more thorough than most. Can't be too careful, I always say.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
No, the B25 paper filter replaces the original oil strainer/screen. Once fully wetted (ie: moments after the tank is filled) the paper filter doesn't restict oil flow, as long as it is not clogged with crap. Obviously it is very imprtant to never let it get clogged with crap, which could happen more easily than a standard strainer. But with the big, feed-line filter, there's no reason why crap should accumulate at anything like the rate it does without it.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I just bought my first Trumph a 73 TR7V after 38 years of motorcycling. Having worked on motorcycle engines since age 16, mostly Japanese, the thought of no oil filter makes me wince. Some of the earlier smaller Japanese engines did not run proper oil filters in the early 70's and it seems when they began to do so, was when the durability of their motors improved dramatically. I have been looking at the various options for filters and so this thread immediately caught my interest. It seems to me that the Charlies filter is ideally located to prevent anything from getting into the motor in the first place, it is only the concern over lack of flow that is an issue. On most motors the filter is after the oil pump but before the oil is circulated keeping debris out of the engine bearings and often some kind of bypass is there so oil can still circulate if the filter blocks. Personally I've never had or seen anything approaching a blocked filter in almost 40 years because I've always been a stickler for regular oil changes usually at far less than the recommended mileage. I'm not really concerned with the Charlies type filter blocking so much as it restricting flow from the outset. It occurs to me that the flow rate could be easily checked to settle the "argument" over whether the oil pump is actually sucking oil through the filter or flow is sufficient through the medium for it to be gravity fed, but it would require a volunteer with a Charlies filter fitted. If at oil change time the pipe was removed from the bottom of the unit, so the oil was drained through the filter the flow could be measured in terms of how long it takes to drain of pint of oil and then this could be compared to how many gph the oil pump can circulate. To me the filter medium surface area looks pretty large and the head of oil pretty tall compared to the size of the outlet. At start up the filter should already be full of oil and the filter medium wet through, although cold starts with cold oil in the tank and high rpm's that some use to get a cold blooded motor up and running would seem to be the worst case scenario for this type of filter, so I'm still somewhat on the fence on this one.

Given the use of two pumps, could a Charlies filter be used with a return filter as well? That way you keep any debris from getting into the motor out of the oil tank, and keep any debris which might clog the Charlies filter from getting into the oil tank. This is unlikely to be needed on a well maintained motor with regular oil changes, but if something starts to go awry in the motor, not circulating debris into the oil tank would be beneficial and you would get the benefits of the extra oil capacity that the spin on filter also brings.

I'm all ears for a conclusion to the thread as I want to order a filter set up ASAP. Has anyone tried checking the flow rate of a Charlies filter by removing the feed pipe and letting the oil drain when cold? this seems to be where the answer would lie for me.

Apologies for my first post being such an essay

Last edited by redhawk4; 11-24-2012 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:32 AM   #37 (permalink)
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http://www.tri-corengland.com/cgi-bi...2dRS004%2ehtml

This is the Charlie's filter -or a version of it.

I have had one for years and John A seems to have no trouble running both types.

The key is to change the internal filter every time, preventing any chance of blockages.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:50 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I found there are two types of tea strainer top hat filter in the OIF.
The later type has a band around the bottom to prevent the sludge in the bottom of the tube entering the system. I added a few very strong magnets to the outside of this band. Seems to help with the crud capture. I also have a Norton type spin on filter on the return.
Found the filter for a Ducati 400 or Citroen 2CV fits.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:48 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Why would you run two filters though? Seems needless. If the oil is being kept clean by a filter, why add another filter? It's just going to cost you more, right?

I don't actually know if the oil pump sucks or not. I assume it only opens up to just cover the oil inlet hole. Any more would be kind of pointless in my mind unless you had an NRV on the inlet. It's just a hole, right? I would assume the pump doesn't suck.

You would need to work out the flow at the oil pump height from the feed tube, not just from the bottom of the tank. It'll lose flow the higher the tube goes.

I need to have a think about this when my head isn't so full of everything. I'm reconditioning my head right now and cleaning up sealing faces post powder coating. I am nearly at overload level now Need a pint.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:55 AM   #40 (permalink)
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AFAIK the pump on twin is push/pull or suck / blow
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