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Brain Furtz

3K views 32 replies 12 participants last post by  jimballard 
#1 ·
We all do screwy things , here is my latest. Thinking my gas wasbad from sitting for a few winter months, I decided to put gas treatment in the gas tank. After I got about three ounces in, something told me I was screwin up. Sure enough; I was putting oil treatment in the petrol. Lots Zinc! It's going to take a while for this old Trumpet to stop smoking!
 
#3 ·
Do they actually make a gas treatment that restores old stale gas? All the treatments I am aware of are preventative products that help maintain the quality of good gas. The only gas restorative product I'm aware of is dry gas for treating water in the fuel.

I have to say that I've never had a problem with stale gas in a 4 stroke engine. I've had old premix carbon up 2 stroke engines, but 4 strokes always seem to be able to swallow it and run fine.

To test the theory, I bought an old bike that in addition to having been butchered by a kid that should not have been allowed to own tools, had a batch of gas in the tank that was so old it was almost black in color. I drained it into a jug and figured I use it to start a bonfire. Well, I ran out of gas one day on my lawn tractor and figured I'd give it a shot. Well the tractor ran just as good as it did on fresh gas. I used up every drop of that old ugly gas in that tractor with no ill effects. That was two years ago. I doubt if it was an E10 gas, so no issues with water or phase separation. But it was nasty stuff and still worked. I'm not suggesting you run something like that in a bike or car engine, but the stuff does seem to work regardless of age.

regards,
Rob
 
#6 ·
I have to say that I've never had a problem with stale gas in a 4 stroke engine. I've had old premix carbon up 2 stroke engines, but 4 strokes always seem to be able to swallow it and run fine.
Rob
Well Rob, you've touched on an interesting topic, that gets a fair bit of discussion by northern hemisphere owners as opposed to us in the south. Your experience will, no doubt, cast a shadow or two over many testimonies about "bad gas".

I've read many, many testimonies warning of the inherent problems that aged gas can bring. This page could not fit but half of these.

Living in Oz, where bikes/machinery are not "wintered" this topic just never comes up anywhere. So we are less qualified to comment on the veracity of the "bad gas" stories abounding on this and other forums.

However, I have had fuel sit in my T120 tank for about three months, whilst I was laboring through one thing or another. When I fired her up, she ran this "old gas" as if it came straight from the pump.

Hearing this from you, I'm firmed up in my opinion that "bad gas" is a very subjective thing and oft quoted to explain no start and poor running problems that actually were caused by anything but "bad gas". RR
 
#4 ·
I've added Gumout carb cleaner, the spray type, to old fuel and it's worked well. A word of caution.....don't use a lot of it as it can dissolve plastic fuel lines (not the large heavy motorcycle type, but the small ones that are used in string trimmers, etc.)

I do wonder about the fears of "bad fuel" and if it's overblown: Jim
 
#9 ·
:) I hadn't run my Falcone for nearly a year. It's been stood in my yard with a tarp thrown over. Last month, I went to start her up. The fuel has been in for all that time, with nothing added. She started first kick, and sat there ticking over at 400rpm, as if nothing had happened. Similar story after sitting for 6 months, with my wife's 900 Thunderbird. Started right up. Bad gas? No such thing.
 
#11 ·
Here's my two cents worth on the "bad gas" legend. I suspect that many of the volatiles in the gas boil off while in storage and the quality of the gas does deteriorate. My guess, and that's all it is, is that this effects the combustability of the gas. By that I mean it does not burn as efficiently in the combustion chamber and hence produces more by-products, most of which I would think are carbon.

I've seen weedwhacker engines that had the rings glued in place with carbon. In talking to all the local lawn, chainsaw and farm equipment mechanics, they say it is from running last year's pre-mix. If you think about it, if my "guess" is right, when you combine that with oil, and let's take it one step further and say cheap, Kmart oil, you probably produce way more carbon than a fresh batch of gas with good oil would produce. But in a 4 stroke, unless you run old gas as a regular diet, I suspect that the negative effects are minimal.

As a sidenote, I bought a new SeaDoo back in 1995. The dealer was changing owners and the previous owner, who was the original dealer for SeaDoos in the US was working with the new owner as he got up to speed. When we finished the deal, the original owner, who was quite the motorhead and very creative guy, invited my wife and I to his house to see a few of his toys after we made the motorhead connection. While at his house, he told me to only run the SeaDoo oil in the engine. He was not going to sell me anything and even if he was not selling the place, his dealership was too far away for me to buy my oil from him. He said that the carbon residue left behind by the other oils, even name brands like Mercury and OMC outboard oils, was too high and would ruin the performance of the Rotax two stroke. He said most of the engine problems on those engines while he was in the business could be traced back to using the wrong oil. The point of this is the carbon deposits are probably the most pronounced negative effect in burning old gas.

One more whack on this horse just to make sure he's not breathing. Farmers have equipment on their farms that can sit for years without being run. My friend Dave has tractors with trees growing up around the axels. Most are very old gasoline engines. With almost 100% confidence, you can put a new battery in them and they will fire right up and run like a top and continue to run well. So, again, in 4 strokes, I don't think bad gas is an issue until you get into very high performance engines requiring high octane content.

Wait, I still have one more swing in me. I would be willing to bet that many of the "bad gas" problems were caused by dirt and other junk, like rust or water in the gas tank that plugged filters, carb jets, or just filled the float bowl with water.

One last two stroke story from this winter. My bro-in-law who is not very handy, brought his one year old Sears weedwhacker to me at Christmas and said it would not run last summer. I figured it needed a diaphram kit or the screen was plugged in the Walbro carb. But that was not the case. The fuel pickup in the tank has a porous stone filter. The gas/oil mixture, and maybe it was the E10 gas alone, produced a deposit that completely coated and plugged that stone filter. I put compressed air into the fuel line and blew into the filter and this goo slowly emerged from the filter. I soaked it in acetone and blew thru it again and it cleared the rest of the goo out. I suspect the goo was the phase separation we read about. I'd never seen that before.

Gee, I kinda got on a roll there, didn't I. Nothing like the first cup of coffee to get the ranting juices flowing. See what you started, Jim.

regards,
Rob
 
#12 ·
A nice body of anecdotal evidence there Snakeoil but the fact of the matter is this in regards to Triumphs.The octane of the fuel declines with age and as the more volatile hydrocarbons evaporate and you get a gummed up carb that will no longer allow fuel through tiny holes in the jets and body of the carb.The effects of dried up fuel in the carb are the source of most if not all "old fuel" problems with a Triumph,the decline in octane only adds to the poor running of a bike that has been sitting for an extended period.
 
#14 ·
Blame it all on me, guys.........after being married to "SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED" for going on 42 years, I'm quite adjusted to being blamed for anything and everything. So, what's a little (stale) gasoline thrown on the fire??

The "village idiot" has developed very "wide shoulders": Jim
 
#15 ·
MoBe,

I do not disagree with you at all. Old gas that has aged in a float bowl is nasty stuff, if for no other reason than it is more like molasses than gasoline. But I thought the topic was old gas in tanks, not in small quantities like carb float bowls. Small quantities in any engine usually spells trouble.

Yes I agree about the octane and the volatiles. My opening comment specifically talked to that point. I also talked to the octane point. Actually, I talked to a lot of points. I had a bad case of VD this morning (verbal diarrhea).

I would not suggest anybody run ancient gas in a Triumph. But other than fuel that has turned to goo in the float bowl, I don't think the old gas in the tank creates the problems in starting or running that it is accused of.

Personally, I tend to dump tanks on new bikes just to see what kind of crud is in there. Never really thought much about that until I bought a very nice BMW once and found a half yard of gravel, sand, and who knows what in the gas tank.

regards,
Rob
 
#19 ·
Colorado......I'll work on it; right after I take care of the week or so of rain that's beig predicted for up here, in my corner of the country.

The "village idiot" will now put on his "medicine hat" (the one with 2 buffalo horns) and start shaking the magic rattles: Jim
 
#20 ·
Afer a winter of ice storms and high winds, we now have high winds and rain here in Ohio. We can count nice days on one hand. This is also predicked here as far as the forecasters can see. But thet are always wrong, right? Low 39 and highs in the 50's, feels like fall out! If it takes all summer to warm up, I'll never get to burn the oil additive out of the gas.
 
#26 ·
Yeah, it sure could be alot worse. I live only a few miles from the Great Divide. The Divide runs along the turnpike and when it rains all the water from one side of the road runs into the Great Lakes and the rain that falls on the other side of the road heads for the Ohio river and eventually into the great Mississippi. Thats alot of water.
 
#28 ·
Okay back to the gas issue.

Good test of Startron today. Parked my boat, 1978 Mako 20' 1987 Yamaha ProV 150hP, about 18 months ago. Had put Startron in before that and the boat started right up. Gas didn't smell funky at all.

Ya'll can think what you think, but I'm using this stuff in my bike and boat. It's also supposed to clean all the funk from the gas tank and clean the innards of the engine.

TD
 
#32 ·
I've always used a stabilizer in my gas when I store any vehicle. With E10 being the norm now in NY, I use a stabilizer intended for E10 fuel. The problem of phase separation is probably exaggerated a bit, but with an 80 gal alum tank in my boat, the last thing I need is a layer of corrosive goo in the bottom of my tank. So, for the price of a bottle of Valvetech, I use the stuff with every fill-up.

But I have yet to see phase separation in any bike I own. Could be the low suface area of fuel to absorb water helps with this. Who knows.

regards,
Rob
 
#29 ·
Henryanthony posted:
[What do you get after two days of rain in Michigan?... Monday! :(
/QUOTE]

Well, Henry, if you lived in New England right now, you'd be getting:.........about 5 more days of rain!!

"What a revoltin' development this is!!" (William Bendix, as Chester A. Riley, in "The Life of Riley"): Jim
 
#30 ·
Henryanthony posted:
[What do you get after two days of rain in Michigan?... Monday! :(
/QUOTE]

Well, Henry, if you lived in New England right now, you'd be getting:.........about 5 more days of rain!!

"What a revoltin' development this is!!" (William Bendix, as Chester A. Riley, in "The Life of Riley"): Jim
Jim, I woke up this morning and apparently Michigan has been moved to New England. Let's meet for coffee... :D
 
#33 ·
Bob, I'm with you on the Star-tron. I started using it in my 99 Virago right after I bought it last year and when I took it to Daytona, this year, it seems that the stuff got the carbs cleaned out a bit. The bike was spitting a bit when I got it, as it had sat for most of 2 years, but by the end of my vacation it was running very cleanly. Might have been just a coincidence, but I'm using it faithfully from now on.

The "village idiot" tried rubbing it on his head, but....still no hair: Jim
 
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