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Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

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Old 08-21-2010, 06:43 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Performance Camshafts

Hi all,
I'm now researching what would be the best camshafts to fit to my 69 650 Bonnie engine.
I don't want full race cams as the bike will be ridden on the road, anyone got any suggestions and / or cam specs ?
For info the standard Bonnie cam profiles are:
Inlet: Opens 34 Before TDC Closes 55 After BDC
Exhaust: Opens 55 Before BDC Closes 34 After TDC

Thanks

Webby
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Old 08-21-2010, 07:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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A standard Bonneville doesn't make maximum torque with those 3134 cams until you reach 5500 rpm.So really,you're losing out below that because of too much duration;especially late intake closing.
So it depends what rpm you normally ride at,and where you want the response.

If you spend a lot of time between 5500 and 7500 rpm,use more duration;something like T140 intake (timed differently,of course).
More lift is always good,you can't get enough lift to get full flow from a standard intake port.

You're a bit limited if you still have the '69 timed breather,you can only use cams with a breather hole.

If you use longer duration cams and they are timed sensibly,you'll need to deepen the valve pockets in your pistons if they look like 9:1 Hepolite pistons.

Last edited by Mr.Pete; 08-21-2010 at 07:27 AM. Reason: "If you use - - - - - Hepolite pistons."
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Old 08-21-2010, 07:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Pete View Post
A standard Bonneville doesn't make maximum torque with those 3134 cams until you reach 5500 rpm.So really,you're losing out below that because of too much duration;especially late intake closing.
So it depends what rpm you normally ride at,and where you want the response.

If you spend a lot of time between 5500 and 7500 rpm,use more duration;something like T140 intake .
More lift is always good,you can't get enough lift to get full flow from a standard intake port.

You're a bit limited if you still have the '69 timed breather,you can only use cams with a breather hole.
Thanks for the reply Mr. Pete
I'm going to modify the breathing arrangement and blank off the timed breather, the intake port has been opened up to 30mm (it may be opened up some more once I meet with my Triumph Tuning Guru next month)
I'm planning on keeping it at 650cc but am trying to extract a little extra useable power.
And yes, I've got standard 9:1 pistons

Webby

Last edited by Webby; 08-21-2010 at 07:32 AM. Reason: Hepolite Pistons
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:07 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Well Brian, haven`t really gone into this seriously, but this is from Stan Shentons "Triumph tuning".
Apparently, the E3134 is a Triumph cam-form, not an actual camshaft.
He says there are 14 different cams for this form.
Bear in mind some of this stuff is for racing.
He rcommends the E6987 inlet and E6988 exhaust.
These are actually BSA spitfire profiles on a triumph shaft.
Timing for these shafts are at TDC (nil clearance) inlet .180" to .190".
Exhaust .150" to .160".
Running clearance .010".
There`s a whole section for cam timing *using the timing marks (dots & dashes) is NOT recommended.
Dont really know what to say, but hope this helps.
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:40 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for taking the time to type out the figures Dave

I've also got a copy of Stan's book, the problem is he doesn't mention the duration of the lift.
According to Phil Irvine's book "Tuning for speed" you should be looking for cams with a duration of:
Inlet Opens at 35 Before TDC
Inlet Closes at 60 After BTC
Exhaust Opens at 65 Before BDC
Exhaust Closes at 30 After TDC
The problem is this book was written in 1952!
(Also off topic, he states that clearance between camshafts and bushes should be between 0.001" and 0.003" )
However I've just found the specs for Megacycle's street cams and they are:
Inlet Opens at 47 Before TDC
Inlet Closes at 68 After BDC
Exhaust Opens at 72 Before BDC
Exhaust Closes at 43 After TDC
With a lift of 0.355" (the standard lift is 0.314")

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Old 08-21-2010, 09:34 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webby View Post
According to Phil Irving's book "Tuning for speed" you should be looking for cams with a duration of:
Inlet Opens at 35 Before TDC
Inlet Closes at 60 After BTC
Exhaust Opens at 65 Before BDC
Exhaust Closes at 30 After TDC
The problem is this book was written in 1952!

Webby
You might also note that Phil mentions after you have set up the 3134 cams at the checking clearance of 0.020",the "actual timing" becomes 59/80 on the intake at running clearance.
These are not really slow cams.Its easy enough to be on the wrong side of 7000 or 7500 rpm if you don't pay attention to the tacho.

I think there is something to be gained by using the timings that the T100R used with the same cam profiles.

Like I said,more lift is better.I've used cams with 0.360" lift (0.400" at the valve);and if I could get 0.500" valve-lift,I would use it (currently working on that).
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Pete View Post
You might also note that Phil mentions after you have set up the 3134 cams at the checking clearance of 0.020",the "actual timing" becomes 59/80 on the intake at running clearance.
These are not really slow cams.Its easy enough to be on the wrong side of 7000 or 7500 rpm if you don't pay attention to the tacho.

I think there is something to be gained by using the timings that the T100R used with the same cam profiles.

Like I said,more lift is better.I've used cams with 0.360" lift (0.400" at the valve);and if I could get 0.500" valve-lift,I would use it (currently working on that).
Thanks for the info Mr. Pete
I've also read that the T100R runs well with BSA 650 "spitfire" profile cams. I also read somewhere that you can use the T100R tappets on a T120 which give you more lift. Has anyone out there tried it?
How would you get 0.500" lift? I would assume (I'm no expert, and I could be talking out of my arse here!) that you would have to enlarge the cut aways in the pistons which would then reduce the CR?
Have you had any experience with Norman Hyde cams? I can't find any specs for them.

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Old 08-21-2010, 10:49 AM   #8 (permalink)
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OK, last couple of questions, then I promise I'll leave you all in peace

What about using a T140 cam in the intake with a standard T120 cam in the exhaust? This is the set up that Bones is running and he seems happy with it.
Also what you be the best tappets (lifters) to use?

Thanks

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Old 08-21-2010, 11:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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If you use a T140 intake cam,time it at 47/67.Don't just check it at 0.020",check it again at 0.100" (which is more accurate).You can use "R" followers instead of 3/4" radius,but it might be too cammy for what you want.
Intake valve-pockets in the pistons should be deeper (about 0.030").If you're worried about compression,leave out the cylinder base gasket and cut the pockets even deeper.

T100R cam followers have "R" radius,lift is not effected.They're just lighter,and you use a lighter pushrod (no bottom cup).Its easier and cheaper to just make pushrods that are all aluminium at the bottom cup,and make them fatter in the middle.Use a standard type cup at the top.
Weight is not a big problem;you don't need heavy valve springs to see 8000rpm.
Pushrod flex is a problem,and has been since Triumph first used aluminium pushrods.
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Old 08-21-2010, 12:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This stuff is very interesting!
Trouble is you need a dyno to compare all of these different settings.
Which is not in my workshop.
It would be nice to adjust and test; a bit time consuming if you need to chop and change camshafts though
I suppose the best you do is select the camshafts, and then fiddle with the lift, duration and timing, then test for the best torque/performance at the revs required.
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