Triumphrat

heviarti · 11-14-2009, 04:30 AM

So, I'm new here. I'm not new to motorcycles, or mechanics, or for the most part the combination of the two. However I don't know a great deal about being majorly in the guts of a Triumph, not about the acceptable/unnaceptable procedures of building one. I'd be in alot better shape if I knew where my bud, John Ireleand (Redline Cycles) of Santa Barbara was... if he yet lives. As a kid I worked at a place called Euro Cycle in SB. I mainly did shop-kid tasks. I was the shop-kid... go figure. Follow that with a move home to Idaho and time in the family's tractor shop, I'm sort of a half-fast (read it fast) mechanic.

I lived in Joplin, Mo some ten years ago and received a 750 Triumph motor on a stand as pay. Another trade Got me a carb and electrical system. About ten years ago, I ran it on the stand. Serious hack job... winshield reservoir as an oil bag, Light switch for the ignition, lamp cord for coil wires, mismatched plugs and wires.... but it ran. Ten years later, I finally have a cobbled together rolling chassis to fit it to. I didn't do the work on the chassis, but it looks like i'll have to re-do a good quantity of it.

I fudged last time I ran the motor. I hit the kicker a few times and watched which tube the oil came from. good then, but now I don't recall which line it was that was the pickup and which the return. I've also seemingly let the line run dry as it sat in my storage after the subsequent trip home. So... which line is the pickup, and which the return?

Second, It seems to me the kid that set the oil bag up on this frame I picked up may have gotten it bass-ackwards. The T that should be the feed is on a high standpipe inside the oil bag. The single line is hooked to the screened aperture at the bottom of the oil bag. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't make any sense mechanically. It seems that standpipe would prevent the pickup of oil, and screening the oil coming back into the oilbag would be highly counterproductive. (plug up waiting to happen)

I've gotten my engine mostlyinstalled, however I do not believe I have whatever hooks the two studs atop the head to the frame crossbar, and I've not seen one to be able to say that I could build one from memory. I may just throw something together, build it twice as heavy as necessary and call it good. (typical farm equipment mechanic procedure) I do have a set of rear motor mounts as pictured in ebay item #370287872094, but they don't seem right. There's a sort of mast-and-yardarm assemblyfor the motor to secure by on the rear vertial tube of the frame. the mounts I have don't seem to line up to the threaded bore in either end of the yardarm. I guess I get to fab a set of those. No biggie.

Finally This frame is wired with a harley coil. I'm wiring my system up Zener diode and cap. The wiring plan out of what ever manual it came from doesn't have a provision for that. Never dealt with a twin output coil, so I don't really know what's up with that. The kid I picked it up from said "The Harley coil makes it sound just like a Harley" I really think I caught a whiff of male bovine excrement at that precise moment, but who can be sure? I really don't want to wire an ignition system. I want a mag. No idea how to go about that without building a big nasty bracket to fit the old Fairbanks-Morse I have laying around off of a D John Deere to it.

Other issues to come: clutch (looks like a guy is posting a video series... I'll watch it. Throttle doesn't work right (I think that may be because the twist handle assembly is comprosed primarily of dookie) And Identifying components by sight; that is to say... ok here it is.. I know it is a component for the bike... but what the heck is it. I foresee myself posting an image or two. Anyway, useful suggestions to solve my current head-scratchers is appreciated.

Buck-

GrandPaulZ · 11-14-2009, 08:48 AM

welcome to the forum.

Very important to get the oil lines connected properly. Think "front to back & back to front", and follow me, if you can.

<front to back>
The "front" oil connection at the engine (faces toward the outside of the engine at the manifold under the crankcase) that pulls oil from the tank, connects to the "back" oil tank connection with the filter screen.

<back to front>
The "back" oil connection at the engine (faces in to the centerline of the bike), that pushes oil back to the tank, connects to the thin tube at the "front" of the oil tank that protudes up inside the tank all the way to the top. That's the "scavange" circuit and will show a squirt of oil if you look inside the tank's filler cap. It also has thin "T" pipe that feeds the top of the engine at the rockerboxes.

Get a Sparx electronic inition and wire it to the dual coil, done deal.

Oh, by the way, get a shop manual and parts book (at least the year of your engine)

jimmy bush · 11-14-2009, 09:27 AM

My friend you have a challenge on your hands and have presented it to us. Without pictures or frame numbers, it is hard to decipher what frame you are dealing with and therefore which brackets would work. Triumph has basically 3 frame iterations with modifications to each. They had the pre unit frames where the engine lump and tranny were seperate units. In 1963 (I think) they went to a unit construction engine (engine and tranny in one case) and the frame and mounts changed accordingly. In 1971, they changed the frame to hold the oil in the back bone instead of the side tank. These are called "oil in frame" or "OIF". The first models of the OIF had drum brakes and shifted on the right. The brake pedals mounted to the rear engine mount. In 1973 they went to left hand shift so the brake pedal had to change sides thereby requiring a different rear engine mount configuration. Somewhere along the line they changed to disc brakes also requireing a change. The head stays also changed when they went from pre unit to unit and from side tank to OIF and again when they went from 650 to 750 because the 750 cylinder is about 1/4" shorter. There is a good drawing of one of the later head stays recently posted in the classics forum complete with dimensions. Do a search. On the oil tank, the return line is the line with the tee in it. It exits inside the tank near the top. I think it should be connected to the rear pipe coming out of the engine. It should have a tee in it either at the bottom or top that takes part of the return oil and feeds it to the oil tube "Y" that is attaced with dome nuts to the right hand side of the rocker boxes. The tube with the wire mesh is the pick-up that feeds the pump to oil the crank. You can check to see if you have the tubes on the correct way by removing the spark plugs and kicking the bike over many, many times. The return tube inside the tank should have a small hole in it that starts to squirt oil when the engine is kicked over enough to allow it to scavange the oil in the bottom of the case. You can also loosen one of the dome nuts on the rocker boxes to see if oil starts to seep out after several kicks. Since the engine has been sitting you should prime the return (scavange) pump by pouring some oil into the sump (bottom of the engine). You can do that by removing the plug on the top of the crankcase just behind the cylinder or removing a rocker box cover and pouring it in allowing it to drain down the pushrod tubes which will give the added benefit of lubing the tappets and cams as it drains past them into the sump. To check the feed oil, the timing cover on the right hand side of the engine should have an oil pressure switch or a blanking pug that can be loosened to see if oil is being pressure fed to that area. It will probably take a lot of kicks to get the oil flowing. It would be a good idea to get the work shop manual and parts book for your engine. The numbers on the left side of the case just under the cylinder can be cross referenced to which year manuals you should get. Since you are working with pieces from different bikes, I'd recommend a CD by "Kim the CD Man's" Triumph CD that has most the parts and shop manuals for just about every Triumph on a two disc CD.

heviarti · 11-15-2009, 05:28 PM

I'd seriously consider buying some manuals if the front end on my '70 ford hadn't just ate $400.

so, let's go with some numbers. frame number is T120R DU 38953. It's pre OIF. I know about those and the pain they cause, hence my avoidance of same. The engine is a '71 tiger. I have two carbs, and installed the one the guy at Joplin built me. Electronic ignition? no, not yet. I might just change away from the dual lead coil to the 6v coil I got from the dude at Joplin. He said they make more fire on a 12v system. I've got enough components to make a working system, so I shan't be buying anything not absolutely needful for a little while. Again, does anyone have any pointers on how this Harley coil mess is intended to work so I don't have to uninstall it and rewire?

The return feeding the top end makes more sense. that at least gives it some kind of feed pressure. I'll read carefully what was said and make sure whether the vertical or horizontal end of the tee feeds the top end. I think i'll take a length of line and a small funnel and feed it a bit of oil, as well as all the other places you mentioned. I may also shoot the cylinders for good measure.

So, do I dare run anything as heavy as 15-40 in this? If so, I may use some high detergent stuff for a little while. Clean the gunk out and all.. It looks like I may have to do some welding on the kicker so the peg sits at 90 degrees. at this point when it's in the detent it sits pointing back a little, which equals down in the center of travel... and consequently equals my foot slipping off. Hooray stainless rod and die grinder. I may just fab myself two mount plates for the rear. Doesn't look like a big job. I just hope the two threaded holes in the frame aren't @$^%&% Whitworth, because I know we don't have any Whitworth metric bolts in the bin.That leaves me to get a look at how the top mount is built to see if i can fab myself something that will do the job.

GrandPaulZ · 11-15-2009, 07:54 PM

You can't run a dual lead coil with points.

You also better expect trouble running 6 volt coils with 12 volts of input. I've been around this stuff well over 20 years and NEVER heard such a thing.

Just source a pair of 12 volt coils and do it right. Costs no more than 2 tanks of gas.

heviarti · 11-15-2009, 09:44 PM

OK... I won't run a 6v coil. I was running a single 12v coil before. Now I just have to hook everything all back up... I just have to recall how I had it set up. I did infact have the motor running on a stand some years back. I guess if you want to hear the theory about the 6v coil, talk to the Triumph guy in Joplin. Mo. It's a motorcycle shop/U-haul place. Maybe that should have given me a clue... I traded the guy a patch job on his John Deere mower for a carb and electrical system. I spent 9 months in Joplin living in a junkyard in a stripped out GMC van on blocks. I was the factotum for an auto salvage/shop/towing business. My paycheck was the 750 I just installed. If you've never been to J-town... seriously, don't go there. I'm just about to plumb my oil system and oil the motor. Further answers and work, I should have it least idling by the end of the week. I wish I had an example to look at so I could figure a few of the small head scratchers out.

Still want to install a magneto. they make me happy. Do these fire 90 or 180 from each other? If they fire 90, I might be able to cob a Wico X or that fairbanks morse on. Big, yes... but considerably less than $1200 I'd pay for one from Hunt Magnetos...

heviarti · 11-16-2009, 02:53 AM

Well, It's late but I got some stuff done. Oil system is plumbed and filled. Still need to throw some Marvel in it and crack the top end feed to verify it's oiling. Clutch cable is installed. kicker is modified and much less slip-offy. Throttle still sucky and bindey.

It does surprise me that the nipples on the oil bag are smaller in diameter than those on the engine. It's almost worrying how small the tube that feeds the top end is. It seems to be half the size of the tube on the head. Hopefully that's how it's intended to be. I guess I won't know if the clutch cable is right until I run the machine.

Now I'm looking for a dragass fender for the rear. I don't like the scrolled quarter fender on this one at all.

GrandPaulZ · 11-16-2009, 10:48 AM

Triumph twins fire at 360 degrees.

With a magneto or EI, you get a wasted spark in one or the other cylinder every rotation of the crank.

The oil lines are properly sized, no worries.

heviarti · 11-18-2009, 08:11 PM

Nearly finished fabbing the rear mounts. Looks like the bores on the yardarm affair have been rebored and rethreaded.. I don't know what thread they were before, but I see a Nassau Rock Mount in their future. I have had bad experiences with helicoil.

I pulled the plugs, sprayed in some marvel and went to kicking the motor like crazy. I get oil back via the return standpipe in the tank, however I don't seem to get any flow to the T at the top end. I even tried pumping the line full of oil with an oil can, and no flow. ??

It does seem that I have a dual point system. That makes me happy. I guess I'll wire it dual coil, and scratch my head about how I had it rigged with a single 6v Lucas coil.

GrandPaulZ · 11-18-2009, 11:44 PM

I had a clogged feed pipe to the rockers once. Just run a strand of hard nickle wire through the fitting to clear it. Also check the rubber tube and the "Y" feed pipe at the rockerbxes. It has to be clear all the way. High pressure compressed air is your friend (disconnect the pipe from the bike first)