Triumphrat

ViLe

Hi all! Requesting assistance in determining whether my boyer has gone bad...

Basic set-up: Sparx 3-way alternator, Boyer mk3 black box, 2 x 6 V coils in series, BR8ES plugs (resisted), AGM type battery (good shape, 12.7 V). All the rest of electrics work.

Did 100 kms after the Sparx install, suddenly after riding for 40 kms (light shower) bike stutters and dies. Long story short, carb is clean. The only changes made is the sparx & the plug change to resisted type, and tuning the idle stop screw.

No spark. Two different puzzling things:

1)


Measuring resistance between the pick-up wires gives a reading of 73 ohm, should be 130-140 ohms. This would indicate one coil gone bad. Would that be enough to kill the spark?

I took off the plate and to be thorough can anyone confirm what I'm seeing and what it means:

Cross-ref on the diagram above, multimeter on 200 ohm scale:

A1 - A2: 39 ohm
A1 - B1: 4 ohm
A1 - B2: 38 ohm
B1 - A2: 39 ohm
B1 - B2: 38 ohm
A2 - B2: 72 ohm

A1 - C: 38 ohm
A1 - D: 37 ohm
B1 - C: 38 ohm
B1 - D: 37 ohm

A2 - C: 3 ohm
A2 - D: 72 ohm
B2 - C: 72 ohm
B2 - D: 3 ohm

C - D: 74 ohm

The A1 - B1? It's connected, so should it read 4 ohm?

2) Going through this troubleshooting list (http://www.650central.com/boyer_bran...leshooting.htm)

I get to part "power to unit, no sparks on & off, no sparks cranking". I disconnected the pick wires, ignition on, put the box wires together: no spark. Using the voltmeter, I see 12.3 V on the coil, when the wires connect this goes up to about 12.6 V. Both coils give the same numbers.

The troubleshoot suggests the box being "most likely" faulty. That or the coils.

So, any experiences as to confirming the box's functionality (other than sending to Boyer mfg.) based on my situation? Browsing through previous boyer-related posts there seems not to be many (if any) ways of testing the box. And before I start looking at / spending for new parts I'd like to know .

Thanks for reading!

-Ville

Webby

Hi Ville,

I've not no experience of trouble shooting a boyer (I'm sitting here looking at mine still in the box). However I have had a good read of the trouble shooting guide you had as a link.
To be sure I've taken my boyer out of the box (brand new never used) and tested it, I have the following readings:

Across the output wires: 140 ohms
A1 - A2: 71 ohm
A1 - B1: 0 ohm
A1 - B2: 70 ohm
B1 - A2: 71 ohm
B1 - B2: 70 ohm
A2 - B2: 140 ohm

A1 - C: 71 ohm
A1 - D: 70 ohm
B1 - C: 71 ohm
B1 - D: 70 ohm

A2 - C: 0 ohm
A2 - D: 140 ohm
B2 - C: 140 ohm
B2 - D: 0 ohm

C - D: 140 ohm

I hope this helps, before you throw your stator in the bin, I can see from your photo what looks like a piece missing from the printed circuit just below the "ant.clocktiming" arrow. This would explain why you only have 50% resistance. In fact I think that both your coils are working, you have half the resistance on both A1 - A2 and B1 - B2 (so both coils the same), if one of the coils was broken you would either have a resistance of 0 (total short) or infinity (no connection at all) I would suggest repairing the circuit with some solder and maybe a small length of wire and then taking the readings again.

Also I would take your reading of 4 ohms as being 0. If you touch your multimeter cables together it is possible that you will get the same reading (mine read 0,4)

Let me know how you get on

Good Luck

Webby

thirdbike

Looks like something cooked your stator plate. That plate is supposed to be nice and clean with dry solder connections. Looks like yours got really hot or someone tried to resolder the connections and was in a bit of a hurry.

I am wondering if you hooked up your new Sparx unit correctly resulting in your Boyer getting way too much juice. I looks like your stator almost melted. I suspect that your black box may also be done.

How did you wire your Sparx unit?

ViLe

Thanks Webby & Thirdbike!

Webby: Your brand new readings are a good cross-reference. And yes, my resistance is quite logically half of what it should be all across the readings. I'd put the small differences on time/dirt/heat/oil.

What you write and what throws me off is the fact that both coils seem to work, but just only at half of what they should? Why and how?

As to a cut in the circuit print, that's just a raise under the print, and the flash in the photo makes it look it's broken. But it is intact.

Thirdbike: I fitted the sparx as per instructions (double-checked here on the forum ): 3 wires from alt to regulator, from the regulator red to ground, black to ignition. Didn't blow any fuses, and since the sparx unit has no "direct" contact with boyer, would be suprised if that was the case. And I think the wires would burn before any current would cause "burns" in the plate

I did solder some new tin to the old solders, but didn't overdo it as to burn or melt anything. Overall the plate was like that before. Since the Boyer was installed by P.O or some unknown third party, the question then is whether someone at somepoint has tampered with it?

As I have no reference as to how a brand new Boyer plate should look like, I have what looks like duct-tape of sorts wrapped around my coils?... Also the metal band that keeps the coil in the plate is a bit ill-fitting and twisted. More reason for suspect?

Obviously anything and everything can be done, but why would anyone want to reduce the coiling in the pick-up plate? The bike HAD 12 v ign coils before, so could the reduction of coil (resistance) be tied to a bigger resistance from the ign coils? Just guessing here, don't know if it would do anything...

But yes, I share the notion that the black box is fried. But that too is a new set of why's and how's. Any ideas (other than already described) in verifying it? Obviously no spark is a good indication of something being wrong... heh.

Thanks for the input, I'm a bit wiser but not yet there.

-Ville

thirdbike

Not enough info to diagnose what is going on. I wouldn't throw a new Boyer unit on just yet as you have some kind of an electrical problem.
As for the wiring burning first, heat from overloading occurs at the weakest point in the wiring.
What kind of regulator are you using? If you are using a SPARX rectifier, you must use resistor spark plugs or resistor caps as the circuitry is sensitive. Using non-resistor plugs can cause overcharging. This appears to be what happened to your unit. but you did indicate that you are using R plugs. The AGM battery will take more of a beating than a regular wet cell. Some have reported their batteries boiling dry in these circumstances.
Also, which wires from the alternator are connected how to the rectifier?

Webby

Hi Vile,

Please find attached some photos for reference of what a new boyer looks like. Regarding the metal strips, I think they are all like that, also the masking tape (like paper tape) are original.
Sorry if I didn't explain things very well yesterday, it was 04h00 in the morning here (I couldn't sleep, it was too hot!) so I'll try again now that I am more awake

I find it strange that both your coils read 39 ohms (on contacts A1 -A2 and B1-B2) I would expect that if a coil was broken that the reading would be either 0 ohms (a complete short, like melted insulation so all the wires touching) or infinity (a broken wire so no connection)

But with your readings it as like both your coils are half working, strange

Just one idea, check that the tape around the coils is in good condition and that the metal strips are not touching the coil windings, it might explain the strange values you're getting.




Good Luck

Webby

ViLe

Thanks again gents! I'll try to be less wordy this time...

Thirdbike:

Yes, I'm using the Sparx regulator. And made sure I used resisted plugs before running

I connected the three alternator wires as per (http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatal...tructions.html). As all the wires in the regulator are yellow I presumed (and read somewhere in the 'net) them interchangeable.

And since the bike is not running I presume it hard to test the regulator to be sure? Too early to say with the Sparx, but I've had mysterious trouble with the Boyer before. Though that time the "fix" was mainly to loctite the magnet-rotor, and re-time the bike. Ran nicely after that.

And yes, I'd like to get as close to the bottom of this before dishing out for a new Boyer / Sparx / NameYourFavoriteElectricIgnition... and frying that aswell!

Webby:

Thanks for the pics! You were quite clear the first time, so no worries A pristine Boyer is quite far from my unit...

I checked the plate, and the tape isn't showing any damage, and no piece of coil is touching the metal bindings.

Like you say, the "halved resistance" is quite puzzling! There is no REAL visible clue (cuts / black burned carbon etc.) as to what would cause it and no shorts, no infinite resistance to suggest something wrong.

It would be easier to diagnose if it wasn't half-working!

Although that doesn't erase the fact that I couldn't produce any spark ignoring the pickup-plate (as the troubleshooting suggests).

IF I found the reason (and fix) for the resistance-halving, I'd be able to test if the box is completely dead like it appears. It's just weird to get a "2-for-1" problem.

More ideas / suggestions welcome! I'm stumped right now.

-Ville

Webby

Hi Ville,

I've only got one more suggestion, try testing the ignition box as in your testing attachment (see below)

If this creates a spark at the plugs then you know it's the rotor, if not it will be back to testing the complete charging/ignition system one component at a time and then a process of elimination.

Sorry I can't be of more help

Webby

THE UNIT HAS POWER – NO SPARKS ON SWITCHING ON AND OFF AND NO SPARKS WHEN CRANKING: After performing the bulb test above to ensure the box has power, disconnect the wires from the ignition box that go to the pickup trigger plate. With the ignition on, touch these two wires together. Making and breaking the connection should make a spark at the spark plugs. If no spark is present then the ignition box is most likely (see checking coils above) faulty. The only units that will not trigger in this way are the racing crank triggered Digital and Norton rotary units (A rapid tap on the end of the pickup will induce the ignition to fire. A single tap will arm the ignition, but if it does not see additional signals after a few seconds will turn off the box and inadvertently fire the coil). Check that the rotor magnets are running within the two metal pole pieces on the trigger plate. On British machines it is possible to move the rotor out slightly by placing a thin metal shim around the taper. The ignition will not fire by hand at less than 200 rpm.

ViLe

Hi Webby! Done that part (had my laptop outside, wireless internet rules!), and that wasn't promising. I only saw a 0.2-0.3 V change measuring from coil terminals while putting those two wires (at the box end) together. No spark.

So basically the box seems to be (is) busted, but weirdness #2 still puzzles me!

And you have helped determine I'd really need to whole set (rotor and box) instead of just a replacement box. Basically, I'd need to check the charging dept. although everything seems to be o.k. before getting new expensive stuff. Money solves everything, I just wouldn't want to spend it for nothing

Hope you get to sleep tonight, we've had warm weather aswell... it's still 26 celsius inside despite windows being wide open! Thanks for going the distance with the pics and all!

-Ville

Webby

No worries Ville,

It's a shame we couldn't get to the bottom of it all, I too am very confused by the readings on the stator.
Well, good luck with refitting a new system, are you planning to go for another boyer, or are you going to try something different?

Webby