Tire gas alternatives - Page 4 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
» Main Menu

Discussion Forums
 » Twins
 » Tiger
 » General
 » RAT

Features
 » Blogs

Motorcycle.com Links

Contribute
 » Photo

Motorcycle Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games

Biker Hang-Out The Biker Cafe' at the end of the Universe. C'mon in, we talk everything about motorcycles on Earth and beyond.


Sponsored by: Motorcycle Accessory Discount Superstore

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-31-2012, 07:31 PM   #31 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
SOTP Vintage Series
Main Motorcycle: Speed Four
 
spank86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hampshire, England
Posts: 7,197
Other Motorcycle: HMS ThunderAce
I've been told I think too much.
__________________
Ever thought this forum might be a lot less random if any of us actually read the contents of each others posts?

You don't have to be stupid to be wrong, and you don't have to be wrong to be stupid.
spank86 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-31-2012, 07:33 PM   #32 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
Supernova
Main Motorcycle: 2011 Sprint GT 1050
 
DaveM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 22,406
Other Motorcycle: 2004 Daytona 955
Extra Motorcycle: Previously - Many
Quote:
Originally Posted by spank86 View Post
I've been told I think too much.
Yeah I get that all the time...................

__________________


My album click here;

http://www.triumphrat.net/memberalbu...er/2712/sort/3
DaveM is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 06:04 PM   #33 (permalink)
Member
Grand Prix 250
Main Motorcycle: one that runs
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: US
Posts: 62
Complete crap if you have to pay extra for it.

A few points; PV=nrT is Boyles Law (or the Ideal Gas Law). This means pressure in the tire will increase as the temp increases; no exceptions even for N2. Anybody who says differently is lying or ignorant.
It is the Ideeal GAs Law and no gas is actually ideal. Water vapor causes air to behave inconsistently and the at pressures above 1 or 2 PSI. The pressure change per delta T is harder to predict as a result of the water vapor.
It's no secret how very minor changes at the tire (pressure, stagger, etc.) can effect the handling of a race car (and those effects multiplied as you go faster), N2 was a way to more predictably control some of those parameters.

So why doesn't it matter on a street car?
-Your vehicle (tires/suspension) is not tuned finely enough to be affected by the differential between N2 and atmo air. Racers very carefully adjust things like pressure and stagger to spefic tracks and conditions. Street cars are running basic OEM set ups on a wide variety of turns (camber, crown, radius, surface, etc.). Even if you're running some custom set up, I'll bet you never checked stagger.
-Race car tires typically operate at 180F and higher so delta between static and operating temp is significant. Even at that T delta, the difference between N2 and air is pretty small (but at 200 mph, where an .125" of stagger can be huge, it matters). Your tires should never approach that on the street so the already minimal difference in pressure delta between N2 and atmo air is further limited.

I really love the whole N2 molecules are bigger so they don't leak out. Any gas will permeate through a tire and the differences in molecule size are fractions of an angstrom. I suppose that that N2 might diffuse through a tire wall at a slower rate than O2 but, since air is 80% N2, if the difference is really significant (it ain't) I'm thinking after the second or third refill, my tire wiould be almost all N2 (since only the O2 is leaking out). I may be anal about it but the truth is, on my car I check, and adjust my tire pressure at least weekly or if there is a significant temperature change. I check and adjust every time I ride the bike.

N2 won't hurt anything but doesn't really help either so I wouldn't pay for it. If you're checking and adjusting pressure as often as I think you should it would be pretty inconvenient to run to your local tire shop that often. It would be cool to have a tank of N2 sitting around but what do you do on the road?
downhill is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 06:11 PM   #34 (permalink)
Senior Member
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: 2004 Speedmaster
 
73T140's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas,TX
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahks View Post
Which is why the whole idea is a laugh, mostly. Unless you have a highly corrosive environment like here in the salty winters. Add that to really cheaply manufactured alloy wheels and you get oxidized bead seats and perpetual rim leaks.

Not as much of a problem on bikes as they arent driven in salty snow as much And almost no problem for you in TX unless you live in the panhandle (or on the gulf ) with their high salt content soil and ground water
Gotta love Texas, not only are the taxes lower, but it seems the air is cheaper too!
__________________
IBA #58131

"If I can't have MORE spiders in here, can we get them bigger and have them closer to my face?"
73T140 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 06:13 PM   #35 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: Speedtriple!!
 
triplestrength's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 980
Other Motorcycle: Triumph Trophy 900
Extra Motorcycle: Honda CB400AT
That's a really good reasoned explanation Downhill, and I accept what you're saying, so why do they offer it for free?
Seems a bit pointless to me.


Sent from my GT-I9100P using Motorcycle.com Free App
triplestrength is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 07:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter
Pole Position
Main Motorcycle: Bonneville SE
 
PopPop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,921
Because they want to keep you coming back to spend your money on other goods and services. And it's free? How do you know what the heck they're pumping into your tire, in terms of concentration of gas? I'm a little skeptical of the whole thing.
__________________
"when in doubt, make a dick joke." Robin Williams

PopPop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 07:32 PM   #37 (permalink)
Banned
Commentator
Main Motorcycle: 71 Bonnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Only 2 states to be in... Victoria and pissed.
Posts: 8,958
Other Motorcycle: 2012 T100
Extra Motorcycle: You can have more than 2?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billbikes View Post
I'd fart in the tires, but the nozzle sounds painful....
It is knowledge like this that keeps me coming back here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boudiepitbull View Post
I was thinking of trying pure hydrogen...

"Oh! The Humanity!"

dogtired is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 07:36 PM   #38 (permalink)
Member
Grand Prix 250
Main Motorcycle: one that runs
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: US
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by triplestrength View Post
That's a really good reasoned explanation Downhill, and I accept what you're saying, so why do they offer it for free?
Seems a bit pointless to me.


Sent from my GT-I9100P using Motorcycle.com Free App
Marketing, I mean them thar Nascar fellers use it, it MUST be better.

Seriously, the manufacturers of the N2 generating equipment use the same silly arguments on the tire retailers that the retailers use on the buying public. As for the cost, it is very cheap when you calculate the per fill price. Although around here, N2 fills are only free if you purchased the tires at the provider. Show up as walk in to get your tires checked/filled and they'll charge extra for N2. I've seen as much as $10/tire.
A few years ago, tire shops with N2 were limited and it set them apart. It's now to the point where if you don't offer N2 your shop is backward. The exotic has become the expected. When I walk through the parking lot at work, I'm amazed at how many of those green valve caps I see. I hope they came free with the tire. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with N2 but do not pay a dime extra for it.
downhill is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 02:18 PM   #39 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: Speedtriple!!
 
triplestrength's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 980
Other Motorcycle: Triumph Trophy 900
Extra Motorcycle: Honda CB400AT
With all due respect, in the UK I could count the number of people who I know who've heard of NASCAR on my fingers and toes none of those 15 people would watch it or even care about it (sorry)
Any way I'm off to our local (ish) tyreshop tomorrow for the MOT on my wife's Bonnie I will demand answers!

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Motorcycle.com Free App
triplestrength is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 03:25 PM   #40 (permalink)
Senior Member
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: 2012 T100
 
norton74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Stockbridge, MI
Posts: 775
Other Motorcycle: 2013 Rocket 3 Touring
Extra Motorcycle: '73 Ducati GT750
Quote:
Originally Posted by triplestrength View Post
The theory as I was told goes a bit like this.
The nitrogen molecules are the largest size of molecule that make up air.
The others are smaller and more likely to leach out during use. As tyres and rims are to some extent permeable the oxygen etc leak out. So we lose a little pressure.
The other factor is that nitrogen does not expand when hot in the same way air does so the tyre should stay at the same pressure constantly.
Now this stuff wasn't around when I was a tyre tech so I'm only repeating what my old employer told me. He also felt that the nitrogen issue was "small potatoes" as far as bikes were concerned.
Me I wouldn't bother as I have my own compresser with a vapour trap.
And always check tyres before riding, but for some it might be useful.

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Motorcycle.com Free App
The amount of empty space between molecules of nitrogen gas is so great relative to the size of nitrogen molecules makes any difference in size with oxygen molecules to be meaningless. The size difference between oxygen and nitrogen molecules is only about 3%.

Air and pure nitrogen follow the perfect gas law pretty well. This law states that at a given pressure, volume, and temperature, the number of gas molecules is the same no matter the composition.

If you are paying for nitrogen in your tires, you're paying someone else's mortgage.
norton74 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oil Filter Alternatives BrianM Twins Technical Talk 23 09-02-2013 07:40 PM
oil filters that fit!! OZ alternatives ???? miley800 Twins Technical Talk 61 12-06-2011 07:57 PM
RHS switchgear alternatives..? eddyfiola Classic, Vintage & Veteran 7 05-18-2011 02:56 PM
Saddlebag Alternatives slowgator Twins Talk 5 04-06-2011 11:54 PM
Gaiter Alternatives faulkner Twins Technical Talk 4 08-23-2009 10:18 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:21 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Forum Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum Kawasaki Ninja 250SL Forum

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.