Triumphrat

Demonic · 11-28-2012, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverado57

I think the point is that "the government" established laws restricting firearms ownership and use. The end result is the same whether it was the Nazis or the Weimar government. In fact, both established strict firearms laws. Those laws left citizens helpless to defend themselves against the government or otherwise.

The Nazis took it to another level by specifically targeting Jews. "On November 11, 1938, the Minister of the Interior, Wilhelm Frick, passed Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. This regulation effectively deprived all Jews of the right to possess firearms or other weapons."

Everything I've read about German anti-semitic hysteria before and during the was suggests the Jews would not have been much better off if the whole population had had guns. Now, if ONLY the Jews had guns, that might have been different. But they were still a minority, and the anti-semitic sentiments in the population would not have been lessened just because they were armed...

PopPop · 11-28-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irishguy

While I am a firm believer in my 2nd amendment rights and I always reserve the right to defend myself, my family and my property, The guy seems from the article to have been excessive in his use of force. Of course we may never know the true intent of the teenagers. Historically teenagers have commited some heinous crimes.

In closing, I will say this... Anyone who breaks in my house better be prepared to die, I say that unapologetically.

And I hope you're prepared for the consequences. The castle doctrine doesn't give you an unqualified right to take the life of someone who has broken into your home.

Sent from my iPhone

Silverado57 · 11-28-2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demonic

Everything I've read about Germany anti-semitic hysteria before and during the was suggests the Jews would not have been much better off if the whole population had had guns. Now, if ONLY the Jews had guns, that might have been different. But they were still a minority, and the anti-semitic sentiments in the population would not have been lessened just because they were armed...

We're getting off on a tangent now, but you might think twice about trying to erase a segment of the population if you know they have a way to protect themselves. Even if you're armed, you're not likely to go looking for a fight with someone else who is armed.

See Robert Heinlein: "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life".

Silverado57 · 11-28-2012, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PopPop

And I hope you're prepared for the consequences. The castle doctrine doesn't give you an unqualified right to take the life of someone who has broken into your home.

Sent from my iPhone

I am.

I intend to meet force with force to defend myself and my family within the confines of the law and my own morals.

BalancePoint · 11-28-2012, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoVel

I think these teens picked the wrong house to break into but that doesn't give him the right to do what he did.

http://news.yahoo.com/minn-homeowner...165741172.html

A Minnesota man was charged Monday with second-degree murder in the Thanksgiving Day shooting deaths of two teenage cousins he said had broken into his home.
Byron David Smith, 64, of Little Falls, told investigators he shot 17-year-old Nicholas Brady Schaeffel and 18-year-old Haile Kifer as they came downstairs into his basement workshop.
A criminal complaint says Smith told investigators he shot Schaeffel when the teen had partially descended the stairs, then fired again into the teen's face as he lay on the floor looking at him.
"I want him dead," the complaint quoted Smith telling an investigator.
He then described sitting down again in his chair, and in a few minutes, the second teen — Kifer — began walking down the steps. Smith said he shot her and she also fell down the stairs. He said he tried to shoot her again, and when his Mini 14 rifle jammed, she laughed at him.
Smith told investigators that made him mad: "If you're trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again," he said, according to the complaint.
Smith said he then pulled out a .22-caliber revolver he was wearing and shot Kifer several times in the chest. He fired a final shot under her chin because she was still gasping for air a few minutes later, he said.
Smith called a neighbor the following day, Friday, to ask if the neighbor knew any good lawyers, according to the complaint. He later asked his neighbor to call the police.
Minnesota law allows a homeowner to use deadly force on an intruder if a reasonable person would fear they're in danger of harm. Smith told investigators he was afraid the intruders might have a weapon.

She laughed at him?

I think there's a helluva lot more to this story. Methamphetamine teen meets booze man. Shots fired, hilarity ensues. More shots fired. Nobody's laughing now.

And they were his cousins? Knock me over with a feather.

My best guess is that some extreme level of anger and resentment toward the two dead cousins, perhaps due to previous thefts, confrontations, and assorted dust-ups led to the last one.

Sadly, nothing surprises me.

Silverado57 · 11-28-2012, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BalancePoint

And they were his cousins? Knock me over with a feather.

Wrong. The intruders were cousins of each other.

Demonic · 11-28-2012, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverado57

We're getting off on a tangent now, but you might think twice about trying to erase a segment of the population if you know they have a way to protect themselves. Even if you're armed, you're not likely to go looking for a fight with someone else who is armed.

See Robert Heinlein: "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life".

I don't really disagree with you, but I do think it's overly simplistic to think that with more guns in society, those Jews would have been alright. Their entire country (and vast part of Europe) turned on them, and I don't think that would have changed much if the gun control legislation hadn't happened. Again, unless every Jew got a gun for his Bar Mitzvah.

And that quote, I've seen it before, and never really agreed with it. I'd rather people were polite out of a sense of decency, not out of a fear of getting shot. Is America really that more polite than, say, Japan, just because they have more guns?

Silverado57 · 11-28-2012, 07:54 AM

We'll never know if they Jews would have had a chance. All we know for fact is that they had no way to defend themselves, and they died by the millions. You may draw your own conclusions based on mere speculation and opinion.

Personally, I find most people to be civil enough even if they're not waving weapons around.
In the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy here, people became even more kind towards each other, even without weapons being involved.

I think the point of the Heinlein quote is that if know your neighbor is sporting a weapon, you're probably less likely to start a fight about his dog P'ing on your petunias.

Demonic · 11-28-2012, 08:01 AM

Yup, and clearly we are drawing different conclusions. :-)

And if my neighbour pisses on my petunias, I should be able to tell him off, safe in the knowledge he can't shoot me. :-)

EDIT: I can't even grow mold. My petunias would have died anyway.

HAP · 11-28-2012, 08:13 AM

http://crimeinamerica.net/ http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...ime_rates.html

Just two of the hundreds of detailed crime statistic reviews available. Every crime in America that has been investigated has a report and finding of what weapon was used.

The far left and the anti gun folks can look at the Brady web site and the far right pro gun folks can look at the NRA web site. They all use the same statistics to get their points across just by changing the reason behind the crime.

For those who believe that the Jews were a peaceful group of lemmings in the second world war there is good reading in the stories of the Warsaw ghetto rebellion. It took some of the most fanatical SS troops Hitler had to put it down and the Germans paid a huge price. Those Jews chose to fight and die in lieu of going quietly into the night to die by gas. Oh, they had guns they took from the Germans after they killed them with kitchen knives and clubs.

Again, this thread never started out to be a GUN thread, yet both sides always seem to need an excuse to put their point across.