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Old 11-21-2012, 04:38 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Someone hasn't followed the thread:

...

Apology accepted.

Ok, I forgot those two. But they were talking about the media, not "blaming the RIGHT" for the collapse of the twinkie business...
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:39 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Here's an idea...

How about the baker's union and the teamsters put together a bid to buy the company?

Apparently, they feel that they know how to run the company, so give it a go. Sitting around bit***** and moaning about the "vultures" isn't going to bring these jobs back, so "man up" and "buck up" and show those evil basta*** how to run a company.
Straw man argument. They made no claims about "knowing better". Can you show that what management did was reasonable, giving themselves huge raises and bonuses? And where do you propose they get the money to do so?

So we should just shut up about such practices, and let the vultures do what they want?
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:41 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Seems like a reasonable response to a dreadful situation. Those unions have more money than God as evidenced by the massive amounts of money that they pour into elections.
Try looking up the numbers before making such claims.

Quote:
This way, they wouldn't even have to negotiate wages and benefits. They would be voted on by the members.

Truly a win-win situation.
Owned & Operated business ventures have succeeded. Why do you assume a union has the money to buy the company it works for?
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:48 PM   #164 (permalink)
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And where do you propose they get the money to do so?
That was a bonus for the 900,000,000 in pay cuts.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:22 PM   #165 (permalink)
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OK...so what I am getting from this discussion, particularly Owenbrau...is that there is no solution.

Workers should have no equity (skin) in the game. They should take no risk, but should be paid the same as the investors that put their money on the line.

Again, they (the unions) pump MILLIONS into elections, pay their leaders six figures for "bargaining" for them, but don't have the money to do this deal themselves??? C'mon Owenbrau...give me the figures on what the Unions gave the politicians. Combine it all and I'll bet it would represent a nice down payment on Hostess's assets.

Again, are you advocating for government owning the means of production? It's okay to say so, if it's what you believe.

Otherwise, it appears there is no answer...other than to demonize and degrade those that invested THEIR money and tried to make the company work...and that seems to be all the union is interested in doing...all the while their members are out of work.

If the Unions, that in this case, control the cost of wages, aren't willing to take on the risk, why would anyone else?
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:57 PM   #166 (permalink)
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I've argued both for and against unions under various situations so I don't think I can be called 'pro' or 'con' generically.

However I should point out that one problem with the argument going around about 'the unions should spend their money to buy the business instead of donating to politicians' only works if big business itself doesn't continue to donate. Level playing field and all.

This election here in CA, we had a proposition to eliminate political contributions that are made via payrole deductions. Since unions are the only groups who fund themselves via payrole deduction, this would have soundly eliminated their political power. Sounds great, why give those nasty unions such a voice? Well, you have to give them such a loud voice to be heard over the very few wealthy doners on the anti-union/pro-business side. So you end up with a few extremely wealthy against a collective of many working class. Which is exactly what unions were formed for in the first place.

Personally, I'd rather see BOTH of them put under extreme limits for what they can give. Keep a level playing field, just make the bar lower for everybody and get some of the money out of politics. Then we might - MIGHT - have a chance at reforming the system.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:01 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Otherwise, it appears there is no answer...other than to demonize and degrade those that invested THEIR money and tried to make the company work...and that seems to be all the union is interested in doing...all the while their members are out of work.
Unfortunately, in this case it does not appear that those who invested their money actually made any real attempt to make the company work. They instead deliberately ran the company into the ground as they could make more money in the short term by looting it.

Obviously not all company management operates this way, just as not all unions are out to suck every dollar out of the company regardless of outcome. In this case however it does appear that way.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:08 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Can I just point out that a union has no incentive whatsoever to run a company into the ground, as doing so means they no longer collect dues. A union only makes this "massive income" while it's members are working. When a company fails, the union (and it's members) get nothing. I'd like to know, however, the size of severance package awarded to the CEO and exec....
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:50 AM   #169 (permalink)
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@highcard...you're not even making a logical argument and clearly have misinterpreted not only my post but several others.
I'm betting on HP as the next big US corp to go down...shall we blame THAT on unions, lefties, Obama, Romney, righties or centrists or just acknowledge that this once powerful high tech leader has had YEARS of horrific management?

I don't want labor running a company I'm a shareholder in, I want GOOD management and a motivated, compensated workforce.

BTW, people who take over businesses, large or small cap, rarely do so with their own money.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:06 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Corporations and wealthy individuals are throwing more money at elections than unions. Unions' contributions are often thrown into the discussion to create the false "on the other hand" dichotomy that the media feel they need to present "both sides" of a story.
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