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Biker Hang-Out The Biker Cafe' at the end of the Universe. C'mon in, we talk everything about motorcycles on Earth and beyond.

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11-19-2012, 10:12 AM
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#101 (permalink)
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Senior Member
SOTP Vintage Series Main Motorcycle: 2005 Bonneville Blue 790
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Central Maryland, USA
Posts: 7,144 Other Motorcycle: 1973 CB450, long gone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAP
Why hasn't any one thought to ask why we stopped buying the sugar products these folks made? Why is it the union's fault for not wanting to give more back to a company that couldn't make it to begin with back in 2004?
Did the company make bakery shop improvements? Not that any article has stated, they pocketed the bucks. Did it stream line the baking process to use less labor, shut down non profitable shops, research why they were losing market share?
Aside from the loss of 18,500 jobs (which is very sad) do we really give a hoot about this crummy company? Kinda like saving worthless car companies, lack luster banks and huge investment (pension driven) funds.
Those that have blasted big business and capitalism, let's hear how you would have saved the company and it's union jobs. Those that hate the unions just who do you intend to bake your sugar bar?
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I'm not sure how many people know the pattern with many of these takeovers by private equity funds:
Buy the struggling company cheap, have all employees except management sacrifice wages and benefits and suffer layoffs to keep it "viable". Pay outrageous sums to management for outstanding work to keep company going, and charge massive fees for financial advisory services.
Take out massive loans allegedly to improve the company and make it viable, continue with the givebacks and layoffs for employees and the massive salaries and bonuses for managers. Charge massive fees for advisory services and for arranging the loans. At the same time, split the company into profitable and unprofitable divisions, and sell off the profitable parts. Charge massive fees for this expertise.
Declare bankruptcy to get out from the huge loans, continue with more givebacks and layoffs by employees and more money for managers to carry the company through bankruptcy. Charge massive fees for advisory services and "helping" the company through bankruptcy.
Repeat a couple more times if possible (think airlines). When the scam doesn't work anymore, or the employees balk, close up shop. Charge massive fees for advisory services. If the company doesn't close, it has been radically restructured by reducing employee wages and benefits to much less than they were before.
In the end, nothing has been accomplished, but the private equity fund has sucked millions out and made a handsome profit for its "investment", and its accomplices in management have been paid very well, while the company has gone out of business and the workers have lost their jobs. Blaming it on the unions is just the icing on the cake.
This is the playbook for vulture capitalism. It's massive legalized theft and fraud. Some companies can't continue in business because their markets have changed, but they don't have to be terminated like this.
__________________
Marty
2005 Bonneville Blue 790cc, AI removed, Staintunes RC, Uni filter, no snorkel, 118/40/NBZT "Thruxton" needles/1 shim/3 turns, tachometer, Ikon 7610s, Ricor Intiminators, Dunlop GT501s, D9 gauge panel.
Last edited by Baltobonneville; 11-19-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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11-19-2012, 10:24 AM
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#102 (permalink)
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Member
Grand Prix 250 Main Motorcycle: 1996 Trident 900
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dover, DE
Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado57
Agreed. It's a shame that so many will lose their jobs like this.
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"Today, Hostess Brands inc. — the company famed for its sickly sweet desert snacks like Twinkies and Sno Balls — announced they’d be shuttering after more than eighty years of production.
But while headlines have been quick to blame unions for the downfall of the company there’s actually more to the story: While the company was filing for bankruptcy, for the second time, earlier this year, it actually tripled its CEO’s pay, and increased other executives’ compensation by as much as 80 percent.
At the time, creditors warned that the decision signaled an attempt to “sidestep” bankruptcy rules, potentially as a means for trying to keep the executive at a failing company. The Confectionery, Tobacco Workers & Grain Millers International Union pointed this out in their written reaction to the news that the business is closing:
BCTGM members are well aware that as the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256.
Certainly, the company agreed to an out-sized pension debt, but the decision to pay executives more while scorning employee contracts during a bankruptcy reflects a lack of good managerial judgement.
It also follows a trend of rising CEO pay in times of economic difficulty. At the manufacturing company Caterpillar, for example, they froze workers’ pay while boosting their CEO’s pay to $17 million. And at Citigroup, CEO Vikram Pandit received $6.7 millionfor crashing his company, walking off with $260 million after the business lost 88 percent of its value."
Yeah, ALWAYS those dam Union employees gouging the employer. Wake up and smell what your shovelin.
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11-19-2012, 10:34 AM
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#103 (permalink)
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Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter SOTP Vintage Series Main Motorcycle: 71 Bonnie
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Only 2 states to be in... Victoria and pissed.
Posts: 7,768 Other Motorcycle: 2012 T100 Extra Motorcycle: You can have more than 2?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howiedodat
... the decision to pay executives more while scorning employee contracts during a bankruptcy reflects a lack of good managerial judgement.
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Depends on where your standing.
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11-19-2012, 10:36 AM
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#104 (permalink)
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Senior Member
SOTP Vintage Series Main Motorcycle: 2013 1200 Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Friendswood, TX
Posts: 7,709 Other Motorcycle: 1999 955i Daytona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltobonneville
This is the playbook for vulture capitalism. It's massive legalized theft and fraud. Some companies can't continue in business because their markets have changed, but they don't have to be terminated like this.
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Finally, someone identifies the real culprits. Not "big business" as such, not the "man" as such but a small but powerful boutique industry responsible for taking advantage of failing companies. If a company is failing for managerial reasons or for market driven reasons it makes itself vulnerable to these speculator hawks and vultures.
Easy answer is to tax them at the same rates other companies are taxed.
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11-19-2012, 11:29 AM
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#105 (permalink)
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Senior Member
SuperSport Main Motorcycle: 2011 Tbird
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltobonneville
But go ahead and blame the unions for not accepting insulting and degrading cuts in pay and benefits.
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Exactly! They chose to be unemployed. Now with the fiscal cliff they won't get unlimited never ending unemployment compensation because that is being cut off by the Obama administration.
Anyone who would choose unemployment in this economy is at fault for being stupid.
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11-19-2012, 12:55 PM
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#106 (permalink)
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Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter Moto Grand Prix Main Motorcycle: 2010 Bonneville T100
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Philadelphia, PA USA
Posts: 2,619 Other Motorcycle: 2007 150cc Retro-scooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMK9251
Exactly! They chose to be unemployed. Now with the fiscal cliff they won't get unlimited never ending unemployment compensation because that is being cut off by the Obama administration.
Anyone who would choose unemployment in this economy is at fault for being stupid.
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There are none so blind as they who will not see.
We should just be grateful for whatever scraps the vultures deign to leave us after they destroy the company, right?
Sent from my iPad using Motorcycle
__________________
There is a fine line between "hobby", and "mental illness"
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11-19-2012, 01:51 PM
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#107 (permalink)
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Premium Member
Site Supporter Team Owner Main Motorcycle: 2003 Bonnie
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dorset, UK (formerly of Winnipeg, Canada)
Posts: 4,762 Other Motorcycle: 2003 Speed Triple 955i Extra Motorcycle: Monkeybike!
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"Sure, you can keep your jobs. But you will have to work for a dollar an hour, and every day the manager will be allowed to penetrate you with his fist. Meanwhile, the management team will all get pay raises, and will take your pensions away. Don't complain. You're lucky to have a job."
__________________
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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov
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11-19-2012, 02:15 PM
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#108 (permalink)
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Lifetime Premium
Site Supporter Pole Position Main Motorcycle: Bonneville SE
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,312
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Within a public agency:
Every two years I negotiate a contract with Local 49 International Union of Operating Engineers. These are the guys that plow our roads in the winter and fix them in the summer - among a lot of other things.
I've found that over the past 12 years, the best contracts came when both sides came away thinking that they were getting the short end of the stick. It's seldom that anyone has the upper hand in negotiations.
That wasn't necessarily true the last time around. Because of cuts to local government funding, from the State, we had little to offer the union for additional compensation. To their credit, they understood that (not happily) but they didn't go into a pout and threaten to strike. We found some workplace issues that we could work with them on and defined strategies for additional training.
I think they're a good bunch and don't want to see anybody sliding off the road anymore than I do.
__________________
Even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road. -- Stephen Hawking.
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11-19-2012, 02:45 PM
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#109 (permalink)
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Mockerator
Site Supporter Pole Position Main Motorcycle: 2006 Thruxton
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,893 Other Motorcycle: 1971 T120 Extra Motorcycle: Ossa 6 day replica
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what?
people sat down and talked? and tried to understand each other's position? and then both made compromises? and both groups were decent people and treated each other with respect?
yeah right. That'll never work
__________________
 stumble trip stumble trip
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11-19-2012, 03:13 PM
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#110 (permalink)
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Senior Member
World SuperBike Main Motorcycle: 06 Speed Triple
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Utica NY USA
Posts: 1,850 Other Motorcycle: 99 SV 650 Extra Motorcycle: 03 WR250F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMK9251
Exactly! They chose to be unemployed. Now with the fiscal cliff they won't get unlimited never ending unemployment compensation because that is being cut off by the Obama administration.
Anyone who would choose unemployment in this economy is at fault for being stupid.
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Ironic humor in written form often requires an emoticon.
Management at Hostess also ignored opportunities to create new products that reflected changing consumer tastes ( launching "healthier" whole grain products for example ), and it's attempts to streamline costs by centralizing it's bakeries led to product changes that had a bad effect on taste and texture. What management was good at was obtaining huge financing deals with huge amounts of leveraged debt that they never intended on actually being able to pay back. As had been pointed out, this is a how to in Vulture Capitalism.
No worries if you actually, for some reason, like Twinkies. A contract manufacturer near you will soon be recreating this Industrial Food Product in a factory near you. Or you can buy a few boxes on e-Bay for the same price a good used Speed Triple and a year of Sunday dinners at your favorite local eatery will run you.
__________________
insert clever saying here...
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