Triumphrat

dogtired · 11-10-2012, 05:44 PM

See that is one difference between us Lee, our stance over the death penalty. I know you believe in it and I understand and accept that. I don't advocate it for a lot of reasons, one of which I believe it makes me no better than the person I would want to kill.

Plus why the fcuk would you let a politician have the power of life and death over you?

Just a small part of my personal belief system.

jonkster · 11-10-2012, 06:06 PM

hard questions here

Here are some questions I really struggle with.

A brain injury can dramatically change a person's personality. So suppose a bloke who is a decent, honourable member of society suffers a stroke or physical impact or tumour etc with the result it damages certain parts of the brain and dramatically changes his personality. Suppose it turns him into a psychopath and coward and sexual deviant (such things sadly do happen). Suppose he then does a terrible crime.

Is it his fault he is this way? He can never regain his former decency. Do we punish him? Why?
Do we try and make him suffer? Should we be happy if he suffers?
Should we shoot him?

Should we feel any sympathy for him or the circumstances that led to this? Should we be interested in finding why his brain acted the way it did?

Now suppose a child is born with a damaged brain (suppose a brain bleed during traumatic delivery) that makes them a psychopath and coward and sexual deviant. They grow up and commit awful crimes as a result. They have no say in the matter, probably they are not even capable of realising how unacceptable they are to most people. How do we treat this person?

Are psychopaths actually brain damaged individuals rather than people who have chosen to be that way? If so why do we want to make them suffer for their crimes if the reason they act the way they do is something they cannot change, understand or control?

Please do not jump in and say I am trying to minimise a crime or think such behaviour is acceptable or that I feel compassion for criminal behaviour. I don't. Understanding why someone acts the way they do doesn't make their actions acceptable.

I seriously struggle with these issues. I have seen people's personalities change in awful ways as a result of brain damage. I hate how they became but... they didn't choose to be like that so I felt conflicted when trying to be angry at the person.

PixMan · 11-10-2012, 07:32 PM

Well, his 21 year sentence will go by relatively quickly (if he can endure this abuse) and he'll be available for interviews, private meetings, etc. when he gets out. I'm sure there will be plenty of people waiting at the gates to speak with him.

At least in my state, a no death penalty one, he could have gotten life with no possibility of parole.

zelatore · 11-10-2012, 07:45 PM

Wow, so much I'd like to add to this one but we're about _that_ close to seeing this closed already....

S3 Street Rat · 11-10-2012, 08:03 PM

I would say life imprisonment in solitary confinement would be a punishment far worse than death. That's why I'm in favor of that rather than the death penalty, aside from the possibility of executing an innocent man. Put him in a padded room and feed him twice a day (something bland, just enough that he remains healthy).

He'd go insane inside of a month. A lifetime and he'd be a veritable vegetable.

lam@ratf · 11-10-2012, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zyhano

this cleaning has already been tried in recent times. bad idea

Where and when did that happen? I suspect we're not thinking about the same thing at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonkster

hard questions here

Here are some questions I really struggle with.

A brain injury can dramatically change a person's personality. So suppose a bloke who is a decent, honourable member of society suffers a stroke or physical impact or tumour etc with the result it damages certain parts of the brain and dramatically changes his personality. Suppose it turns him into a psychopath and coward and sexual deviant (such things sadly do happen). Suppose he then does a terrible crime.

Is it his fault he is this way? He can never regain his former decency. Do we punish him? Why?
Do we try and make him suffer? Should we be happy if he suffers?
Should we shoot him?

Should we feel any sympathy for him or the circumstances that led to this? Should we be interested in finding why his brain acted the way it did?

Now suppose a child is born with a damaged brain (suppose a brain bleed during traumatic delivery) that makes them a psychopath and coward and sexual deviant. They grow up and commit awful crimes as a result. They have no say in the matter, probably they are not even capable of realising how unacceptable they are to most people. How do we treat this person?

Are psychopaths actually brain damaged individuals rather than people who have chosen to be that way? If so why do we want to make them suffer for their crimes if the reason they act the way they do is something they cannot change, understand or control?

Please do not jump in and say I am trying to minimise a crime or think such behaviour is acceptable or that I feel compassion for criminal behaviour. I don't. Understanding why someone acts the way they do doesn't make their actions acceptable.

I seriously struggle with these issues. I have seen people's personalities change in awful ways as a result of brain damage. I hate how they became but... they didn't choose to be like that so I felt conflicted when trying to be angry at the person.

I wonder about these questions as well and think about the inadequacy of the ways we choose to deal with these offenders. At the same time my immediate concern is for the well-being of their victims, actual and potential.

HAP · 11-10-2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zyhano

, let's just take it to the next logical step up in the scale and put some war presidents away for life.

and its not about shia and sunni alone. christianity was used as an excuse to kill a lot of people long begofore the dichotomy in islam. and continues in this present day.

so please be careful when talking about hypocrisy.
why are you glad it ticked me off btw?

Sent from my Motorcycle idevice

I had relatives in your country once. about 300k of them seems they all ended up some where else, dead and no one who turned them in and had them sent to their death, was ever put away for life. Hypocrisy at work. We pick and chose who we want to punish for crimes against mankind and then blame others for their crimes when we hid from just as gruesome crimes our selves. I will leave the christianity out right now because they didn't kill the 100k in Iraq you claimed stupid George for. That's why.

dogtired · 11-10-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtired

Plus why the fcuk would you let a politician have the power of life and death over you?

I am going to go back and revisit this statement, because over the hundred odd miles I have travelled since I made it, it has been gnawing away at the back of my brain.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people who advocate getting government the hell out of their lives would willingly let the same government hold the power of life or death over them. These people bleat about how they cannot trust the government with the most simple of tasks yet give them ultimate power over themselves.

I find this both intriguing and disturbing.

Can someone explain this to me?

lam@ratf · 11-10-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtired

I am going to go back and revisit this statement, because over the hundred odd miles I have travelled since I made it, it has been gnawing away at the back of my brain.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people who advocate getting government the hell out of their lives would willingly let the same government hold the power of life or death over them. These people bleat about how they cannot trust the government with the most simple of tasks yet give them ultimate power over themselves.

I find this both intriguing and disturbing.

Can someone explain this to me?

Maybe because the majority are thoughtless sheep?

LEE · 11-10-2012, 09:29 PM

John ...Dennis..in our country the libs tend to fight the death penalty and then they may even get out years later....I can site numerous cases where very bad people get out and kill again. One dirt bag killed two police officers in NJ...got the death penalty it was over turned and got life he was released five years ago...He almost did a guest speaker at Rutgers university until there was an outcry...He killed two police officers with a partners fortunately his partner was found in NYC and was given mutliple rounds of double OO buck...they used a towel to pick him up

Many of us do not care about a roiugh life ...brain injury...bad treatment...I just want them terminated to prevent future occurances...jmop...
I read about six books on teh death penalty..and came to the opinion that most states do not use it right...except texas and florida. like I said earlier tag them as a pedaphile and stick them in general population...it will be taken care of....