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Old 11-13-2012, 11:55 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Reading over the posts here makes me want to put this up again.
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Originally Posted by lam@ratf View Post
There's an author (Robert J Sawyer) that described a society in which there was no death penalty. They don't have punishment but consequence. It's not about teaching someone what they've done wrong since they had the same chance to learn that everyone does. Instead it's about "fixing" the problem.

For the commission of physical violence against another person the consequence is sterilisation for the person that did it and everyone that shares 50 percent or more of their genetic material. Parents, children, siblings. Cleaning the gene pool.
Self-selection for removal from the gene pool. We all have the capacity for violence so the question becomes a matter of self discipline and self control.

No paying them for committing their crime by giving them food, clothing, housing and medical care at our expense.

Male or female - do the crime, get the cut and you're back at work having to feed and house yourself instead of draining the resources of those you offended against.

Of course you're taking your parents, brothers, sisters and children with you.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:13 PM   #152 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lam@ratf View Post
Reading over the posts here makes me want to put this up again.
Self-selection for removal from the gene pool. We all have the capacity for violence so the question becomes a matter of self discipline and self control.

No paying them for committing their crime by giving them food, clothing, housing and medical care at our expense.

Male or female - do the crime, get the cut and you're back at work having to feed and house yourself instead of draining the resources of those you offended against.

Of course you're taking your parents, brothers, sisters and children with you.
I can't express on here fully how bad of an idea this is. Seriously? Punish the family and other individuals for another person's actions? So if your brother or other family member went nuts and killed someone, you'd be fine with the state forcibly sterilizing you?

Hell - it's hardly even a punishment - if you don't want kids, just go out and kill someone and who cares, you don't mind being sterile - if the time is a deterrent, it's sufficient by itself in this case. Not sure how many murderers are that attached to the idea of having kids. Violence isn't even purely genetic, it is also a result of the environment in which someone is raised. This Sawyer guy is a grade A idiot.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:18 PM   #153 (permalink)
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I can't express on here fully how bad of an idea this is. Seriously? Punish the family and other individuals for another person's actions? So if your brother or other family member went nuts and killed someone, you'd be fine with the state forcibly sterilizing you?

Hell - it's hardly even a punishment - if you don't want kids, just go out and kill someone and who cares, you don't mind being sterile - if the time is a deterrent, it's sufficient by itself in this case. Not sure how many murderers are that attached to the idea of having kids. Violence isn't even purely genetic, it is also a result of the environment in which someone is raised. This Sawyer guy is a grade A idiot.
Pretty sure from that reply that you haven't read the book. Maybe you should find out what you're condemning instead jumping off cliffs.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:42 PM   #154 (permalink)
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If the representation you've given of the book is at all accurate (sterilize family for crimes of an individual) I don't need to. It's idiotic and simply shows no understanding of psychology or justice. The idea is to remove violence by eliminating the genes from the population, but that's mindless hippy pablum - violence isn't caused purely by genetics, nor can you remove it by forcible sterilization. Violent people would continue on by either not getting caught or simply not committing a crime serious enough to get sentenced with your forced sterilization program. You can't rely on people avoiding it for their families' sake, as if they were empathetic, rational or intelligent actors. Violent criminals are typically none of those...
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:58 PM   #155 (permalink)
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...it's the government deciding who gets to live and who gets to die.
I cannot think of a better reason to put an end to the death penalty.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:01 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Pretty sure from that reply that you haven't read the book. Maybe you should find out what you're condemning instead jumping off cliffs.
The problem with your idea is that it doesn't actually the into account the way genetics works.

Give it long enough and we'll end up like bananas, with so little diversity that a single bacteria or virus could wipe everyone out with no hope of finding someone immune.

Plus there's no telling the benefits of any one gene sequence you're removing, one killers brother could be the next Gandhi, genetics is not predictable enough to make the suggestion effective, more likely to be massively detrimental.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:10 PM   #157 (permalink)
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^Exactly. Genetics is a poor predictor on its own, which is enough to do that idea in, let alone the huge ethical issues of forced sterilization of people other than the offender...
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:31 PM   #158 (permalink)
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If the representation you've given of the book is at all accurate (sterilize family for crimes of an individual) I don't need to. It's idiotic and simply shows no understanding ........
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The problem with your idea is that it doesn't actually the into account the way genetics works......
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^Exactly. Genetics is a poor predictor on its own.....
Do you read or just wait to post?

Not my idea. An idea I found interesting. That idea has a context. The rest of the material submitted by the author.

It would be nice to discuss it with you but that's difficult to do if you don't know what you're talking about.

If you want to read that material I'd be happy to discuss the idea pros or cons but if you don't then you're just flaming and post-whoring so I won't respond to any more of your comments.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:04 PM   #159 (permalink)
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Your idea that the book is anything other than a flight of fancy of course.

Removing the specific individual has some small benefit on a genetic level, set against a small possibility of detriment. Removing a larger percentage swings the ration badly in favour of detriment.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:06 PM   #160 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lam@ratf View Post
Do you read or just wait to post?

Not my idea. An idea I found interesting. That idea has a context. The rest of the material submitted by the author.

It would be nice to discuss it with you but that's difficult to do if you don't know what you're talking about.

If you want to read that material I'd be happy to discuss the idea pros or cons but if you don't then you're just flaming and post-whoring so I won't respond to any more of your comments.

He's a frikk'n science fiction writer for crying out loud . What you have described about Sawyer's work could have been written by anybody inside the Third Reich.
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