Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

Strokes - Was the world a better place when we had a choice?

5K views 80 replies 24 participants last post by  Boldor 
#1 ·
So this is the opening thread for the final showdown. Engineers and energy consultants around the globe are hanging on the edges of their seats to know the results of this oh-so important debate.

In the Red Corner (cause red is faster) we have the defenders of the mighty Two Stroke. A piece of engineering whose beauty comes from its sheer simplicity and explosive power. Those arguing the case for the beautiful Toohey do not look down upon the complicated and tedious Four Stroke - we can appreciate its worth - we are merely arguing that the Two Stroke was a most worthy piece of machinery and should not have been killed off by politics (and whatever else brought about its demise).

Over there in the Blue/Green Corner we have the narrow minded laymen who fell for the environmental arguments and believe they were a worthy platform from which to launch an attack at the Toohey. Their main spokesman is HAP - good luck - HAP is confused about the difference between a two-stoke and a steam engine. And if you pull him up on it he calls you nit-picking. And they argue that the world only needs the Four Stroke for their minds are not broad enough to cope with choice.


Don't forget to keep your colours flying men. Fight hard and valiantly. No biting, gouging, scratching or any other nasty underhanded techniques. And stay awake HAP.
 
See less See more
#33 ·
Boldors got a point, 900cc was chosen specifically because that's what was needed to make the four strokes just enough better than the twos so saying they were better is pointless, if only 800 had been needed that's what they would have been. It says more that they almost had to double the capacity to be competitive.
 
#37 ·
Bolt two rg500 engines together, now were talking (talking expensive chain and sprockets that is)
 
#39 ·
Where's the love for this little too smoker?




It shames me now to admit to owning one of these "fabulous" machines back in the day. Yes I know that there are those who revere these sleds, but I'm here to tell ya... this is not the bike you're looking for.

Let's do the check list:

Blue smoke mosquito control? Check.

All 60 ponies at red-line but bog city every else? Check.

Did I mention a most un-manageable peaky 2-stroke power band? Check.

Flexi-frame designed for death-grip riding at speed? Check.

Paper mache drum brakes? Check.

Suspicious CDI ignition? Check.

Unpleasant exhaust note held up for ridicule by friends? Check.

Sorry, I could go on but my rose colored two stroke memories are fogging up. Sold my Mach III after a few months (without getting killed) and got a new Combat Commando... a different story for another time. In an alternate universe I hope I'd opt for a Scott Flying Squirrel for a two stroke bike.
 
#40 ·
The only 2 strokes we can ride in the UK are scooters and old bikes.
I like the 4strokes I ride now but would love the choice.
Would like a 750Kawasaki triple.
Couldn't care less about emmisions polution etc. Anyone can manipulate the stats/numbers to say anything.


Sent from my GT-I9100P using Motorcycle.com Free App
 
#42 ·
Nort did you post that hunka to suggest that Tooheys ought to buried? Because this is what a backyarder can do with your horrible MachIII.



Think what the factories could've done by now!
 
G
#43 ·
You see that god awful pregnant pipe ending in two tiny toy exhaust tips? That is not something more than 10 people in the entire world would buy today in the age of Aquarius. Hmmm, maybe that was the age before this current age. Any way it is ugly, spews oil and nasty exhaust and will never return, nnnnever be built by a factory again. Never I say hahahaha.:eek:
 
#48 ·
So four stroke MotoGP bikes and motocross bikes ALL over the world running faster lap times and breaking lap records was a political decision?

Bol, that my friend, is ridiculous.
Are you comparing 250's to 450's on the dirt?

Even if you compare the same capacity, which is still akin to comparing apples and oranges, of course the one that you cease putting R&D into will eventually run slower. Quicker lap times are just as much about tyre technology.

The point of the thread (due apples and oranges thing) was not to chose which is best but to discuss whether or not the strokers should've been taken from us.

Strokers were outlawed for political reasons, not engineering reasons.
 
#47 ·
What? No mention of 3 strokes(rotary) and 6 strokes (oh it exists as the answer to a question no one asked) engines? For shame....
 
G
#49 ·
Okay Bo, the ball is in your court.

1.Tell us why we should all push for a revival of smelly, noisy 2 stroke motorcycles to be developed for you to watch at the races.

2. Explain why a manufacturer would spend a fortune creating and developing an environmentally acceptable 2 stroke when the entire world's governments think all ICE stink and need controlled via emission standard that a fart violates.

3. Please describe how motocross, superbike and or GP would be better off with a 2 stroke race series when noise controls are now threatening a lot of existing tracks with closure.

4. A side from your favorite Indian owned motorcycle company and Yamaha what other brands are actively working on the magic bullet 2 stroke you believe to be just around the corner.

Thank you in advance for the succinct and to the average Joe, answers to this question as to whether we should bring back a dead beast of yore. respectfully
 
#51 ·
Four Strokes are great but there has to be something else too.

1. Because if they were revived, modern technology would allow them to be completely new machines. Cburt and Throttlejockey (and sp115 apparently) have already touched on this.

2. Well there is the political bit. Who know's what goes on really? It is hard to even guess. This is the bit I originally claimed could fill a thread or indeed an entire website on its own. To go much further you have to conceded that world governments make their decisions in our best interests. So we're fcuked before we start. I don't rule out the possibility of many better options of internal combustion that have been shelved by petrochemical companies - the ceramic engines are the ones that I find the most curious. Where did they go? To understand this topic with any real depth, you need an insight into the machinations between petrochemical companies, governments and how laws are made. I honestly don't have a clue, but it seem awfully weird that technology has leapt from strength to strength - allowed us to meet each other - but it is a revamped and polished version of the good old T-model Ford that is still essentially the technology we use for private transport. THAT doesn't add up.

3. Two strokes are not noisy compared to highly tuned fours. Have you heard Lorenzo's bike in the flesh. I guarantee that if you have stood next to it and revved the Christ out of it, without hearing protection, you're not gunna hear much else this lifetime.

4. They are not just around the corner, that is my gripe. They're squashed under a weight of political correctness.
 
#52 ·
3. Two strokes are not noisy compared to highly tuned fours. Have you heard Lorenzo's bike in the flesh. I guarantee that if you have stood next to it and revved the Christ out of it, without hearing protection, you're not gunna hear much else this lifetime.
This is true. The first year at the Indy GP Schwantz was doing some flying laps on his old 500cc Suzuki. It was whisper quite compared to the four-stroke MotoGP bikes.
 
#54 ·
Memory is vague, and I give the magazines away to my riding buddy, but I believe that Bike magazine made recent mention of some small two-stroke European--maybe Italian--street bikes. Aprilia?
 
#57 ·
Charabanc

Wow - Cool word! This is the charabanc I liked best after doing a Google. A mobile theatrette, that pops awesome wheelies.

 
G
#58 ·
Wow - Cool word! This is the charabanc I liked best after doing a Google. A mobile theatrette, that pops awesome wheelies.

"charabanc", easily a winner in the ADD category. "Squirrel" was the Dog's downfall. Shabang is much less chauvinistic than SHEbang.

As usual with any difference of opinion between us BO, you end up bringing in a bunch of paid "observers in a tilt top truck" to try and sway the verdict. Well, I have had my stroke and am thankful for government intervention in this case. By passing stringent anti pollution and noise laws, the government has effectively saved me from the dreaded two stroke.

I will not miss the two stroke at all. Mach 1 and Mach 2, X6 and maybe a dozen other fast, nasty 2 stroke girls in my past. All dead and buried where they belong. Only charlatans promise to bring back the dead.:eek:
 
G
#59 ·

An actual well running, sorted out 1997 V-DUE from Bimito. Chap in England bought it from the bankrupt company and had local experts fix the factory problems. Swears it is the most fantastic, problem free bike ever. For my upside down buddy Boldor.
 
#63 ·
It was mentioned briefly earlier, but the outboard motor industry has not forgotten about the 2-stroke. Take a look at the BRP offerings in particular such as Evenrude's E-tec line from 25 to 250 hp if you want to see what a modern 2-stroke might look like next to it's 4-stroke rivals.

Are they better than their 4-stroke competition? Maybe, maybe not, but they are certainly comparable if not better in almost all categories. Power to weight, noise, pollution, maintenance cost, etc The only thing they seem to suffer from is public perception, as it's true their forefathers were smokey, polluting enviro-disasters. But these new-tech motors are very impressive.

Snowmobiles are one of the few other places were development has kept pace between the 2 and 4 stroke, and again they are easily comparable. Heck, most mountain sled riders I know wouldn't have a 4-stroke as weight is just so critical to those guys.

So I don't think you can argue that the 2-stroke is dead-end technology. It's simply the victim of political maneuvering.
 
#64 ·
Micro lights too, lots of them are two stroke because of the power to weight ratio.

Unfortunately they're banning them there too and changing them for a four stroke results in an unbalanced, underpowered craft.
 
#66 ·
So - Dr Logan, while on the topic of patient HAP, why do you think he has a preference for fore-aft v-configurations instead of east-west. Could there be a subliminal implications? Should we adjust his medication accordingly?
 
#67 ·
Ah never mind all the technical stuff, two strokes sound ruddy awful. Four strokes sound better, unless they are these Japanese four cylinder rev boxes then there's nowt between it.
 
#70 ·
Uh uh (with head shake). I fear he'll start urinating in the corner of the tele room even more frequently.
 
#72 ·
You have high hopes Dr Logan. If you can achieve that I will recommend you for this years medical Nobel Prize.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top