Triumphrat

Nickwiz

Theres often a call to have less political threads and more Bike threads. Thing is a lot of threads at the mo are either overtly political or descend into political dogma. I'm as guilty of this as anyone. So it got me to thinking that maybe this is a sign of the times. Are we becoming more politicised? Certainly most arguments seem to bat back and forth accross the atlantic or pacific. Both here in the UK and Europe generaly and certainly in the USA things are hotting up. People seem to be getting very frustrated and angry. That frustration is leaking out even onto a forum where we all have more in common than most. The situation has got to the point where even folks with plenty in common who you'd think might share some views are absolutely ideologicaly divided. Its not bad per se infact its quite exiting and interesting in its own way to see people caring deeply about these things but is it good?

It also got me to thinking that rather than holler about our own nations particular way of doing things to each other maybe we should explain better how our different nations work and why we think the way we do. Clearly theres a lot we don't understand about each other. Recent debates on democracy or healthcare really show this.Perhaps its time to try and explain sensibly why we all think so differently about the same issues?

So what say you folks? Are we going to hell in a political polarised storm of a handbasket or is it just a flash in the pan?

The floor is open.

Haggis

When all is said and done, let's hope more gets done than said!

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hypervista

First let me state clearly I am in no way endorsing or denouncing Pat Buchannan's general view or outlook. But I think in this recent OpEd piece he's touched on the sentiment among many accross the US and why their passions are running high. In fact he echo's the sentiment famously expressed by Obama during the campaign about the "bitter clingers". It may give you some insight into why some here on this side of the pond seem to be in an increased agitated state when posting about political topics:

http://buchanan.org/blog/alienated-radicalized-2641

Nickwiz

Hmmm. Now that sounds very similar to the debate going on over here. In the UK the established parties are agonizing over how they lost the white working class to the British National Party. Some of the concerns held by people here are the same. We too have people scared of immigration. being fed half truths or even total myths about immigrants getting all the jobs, houses, bennefits. The truth is different but the truth is disapearing in a welter of fear mongering and radical politics. Here you can throw into the mix young radicalised Islamists and a Govt that seems to have forgotten about the industrial heartland of the UK despite it being the party of working people. A Party funded and created by the trade Union movement.

The British National party are a racist whites only party that have cleaned up their act and sell a brand of palatable far right nationalism designed to appeal to those alienated and disenfranchised white working class but also increasingly the frightened middle classes. Now where on earth did a far right party clean up its act and rely on being elected? We've heard this one before only the language was German.

Strikes me these are dangerous times. Theres an atmosphere in the air that I don't think we have seen since the 1930s.

MrsNickwiz

Think the lack of response is probably more that people like having a rant on the forum, perhaps in America it's better they vent their spleen on here than go out and shoot someone in a mad rage against the world.

Personally I think there will eventually be a big backlash by white British people against the Governments who have done nothing to help them, this will include a backlash against anyone non-British/white. Although I agree that we should stand up for ourselves as Britain has become ridiculously politically correct, it worries me what form this backlash will take and that the BNP will stand to benefit from it when they are a most dangerous party. People will back them as they see no other way of making their feelings known to the other parties who they see as doing nothing.

dogtired

Wanna know what is going on, read Animal Farm.

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DaveB

I don't normally get too involved on the political threads here, but nickwiz has put forward a well written question or two that deserve input.

This is just my take on things in this country.

We mine & produce a lot of raw materials. When the economic crash started there was a delay of about 6 months before we started to feel the effects. Our stock market dropped about 40% from its record high in April 2008 (it's now recovering strongly). As the rest of the world cut interest rates last year our ANC govt. increased them, sticking to their number one commitment to try & reign in inflation despite soaring oil, food & commodity prices. This was, IMO, a terribly brave thing to do with a general election less than a year away. Now the interest rates have dropped a bit & we should be starting to climb out of our recession. Our four major banks here seem to have got through it all without too much trouble.

I believe that we have not been hit nearly as hard as the developed nations, but above all we are used to living in a volatile economy- it definitely changes peoples' mindsets and makes it far easier to get through difficult times, cos we've all been through something similar twice before in the last 20 years or so.

So are we in South Africa more politically minded and/or troubled/frustrated than we were at the beginning of last year? I don't think so- I think most of us are trying to work through the recession with a cautious optimism, hoping for things to improve next year.

And here comes the conundrum: we have a mixed first world/third world make-up with a capitalist economy led by a distinctly left-wing govt!

DaveB.

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hypervista

Nick - I don't think the lack of response is an indication of apathy or simply a desire to mix it up with pugelistic keyboards across the interweb. You pose a very thoughtful and complex question to which there is no easy response. If our respective nations were monolithic and the factors driving us few and concrete clear cut then a response to your great question would be easier to formulate.

In hindsight and through the looking glass of those frightening black an white images of the 1930s world the nations do indeed appear to be monolithic; Hitlers rage and those hypnotonic cheering crowds; Churchill's determination and the Brits bravery in the face of the onslaught. But in reality, none were in fact monolithic. In the case of 1930s - 1940s Germany one need only read about Der Schwarz Kappelle to understand that even Hitler's Germany wasn't totally united behind the madness. The point is, history tends to bend our view and project nation states psyche as uniform monoliths. It's easier for our historians to explain and rationalize what happened.

The point is, there are so many factors and moving parts that make up a nationalistic mood it's difficult to say precisely why and how the collective "we" act. There is quite a bit of polarization these days and my simplistic view of it makes me believe it's partially due to the fact our politicians seem to be in perpetual campaign mode. I don't think it used to be that way. Being in perpetual campaign mode, both sides see benefit in stoking fear and anger at "the other side", without respite. It almost feels as though we're decending into national madness. Our fears over the economy and what that means to us and our families, our fear over the "other side of the political spectrum" winning and imposing their view on the rest of us (family values, abortion, gay rights, nationalized health care, wars, our standing in the world, etc.). Some care deeply about all these issues, some pick and choose which drive their passions but they are all undercurrent factors in how we react to one another. No doubt years from now the historians will look back and we will appear to be some sort of monolithic entity to them.

RonL

I think that you'll have some folks who are highly politicized on the right and some highly politicized on the left, but the majority are happily in the middle somewhere. They don't make too many waves as long as they get along doing what they're doing. Typical NIMBY thinking (Not In My Back Yard). However, the current financial turmoil has people thinking, worrying, and looking for answers because now, they are being directly affected.

They couldn't care less about Reganomics as long as their home appreciated in value. They didn't give a damn what Clinton did with a cigar as long as their 401K kept growing. They didn't worry about WMD's as long as they were working and had benefits. Well folks, that's all changed and those people who spent the last years apathetic to what's going are finally starting to realize that they shouldn't be turning a blind eye to what's going on both locally and globally.

I find more people nowadays want to know what's going on. They're asking questions, creating dialog, and also forming opinions on current events.

davids

as a small contribution to the debate just a thought (from a man who is definitely a believer in functioning democracy) in the form of a mock exam question.......

It is said that the most efficient government is benign despotism but the most widely sought is chaotic, pluralist, liberal democracy (often parliamentary in form) which seems to be a sub optimal solution in terms of efficient government. What seems to be wanted is the efficiency and order a benign despot can bring but the freedom that changeable or erratic democracy offers - does this explain frustrated and disappointed nations, is a given level of conflict healthy and if so to what extent? Discuss........thepot

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