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Affordable CNC Porting Program

17K views 113 replies 19 participants last post by  '08Thrux 
#1 ·
Hey guys,

I am trying to establish an affordable CNC porting program with Millennium Technologies. They have the ability to do the R&D, but were wondering if someone had a really good porting job that we wanted to use instead. Porting is very much an art and also a lot of trial and error. If someone has a high end port job and would like to lend us their head for a week, we could most definitely compensate you for your troubles with lots of forum love and even some $$$.

Once we get this established, Millennium would be able to offer head porting for less than $300. You would be doing a tremendous service to the community. We could even name the CNC program after you and make you a plaque.

Thanks guys.
 
#4 ·
Wouldn't you need a 6 deg of freedom machine for this? To get that down to 3 bills for a triumph head would be a dream but sounds too good to be true.

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#5 ·
I'm not sure what Millenium has, but I know they offer the service and are a very large scale high-end operation. That's also roughly the price they quoted me. The hard part is getting the first port done and tested. They said that once it's scanned in and they have the program it's a very easy process for them to execute. That's why it would be infinitely easier for us to take a proven design and replicate it.


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#19 ·
In what world does it make sense to spend anything more than $3-500 to port the head of a Bonneville who even with no miles and in perfect condition is worth less than $5000? These are cheap, low performing bikes, that some of us enjoy hot rodding out. Porting does not have to be an expensive part of the process.

I'm sorry you spent $7k with TPUSA building out your engine, but most people can't afford to do that. There is also a reason they're not in business anymore. There is a reason D&D doesn't even care to stock the pistons they helped develop for the Bonneville. There is a reason that you can't find half the aftermarket parts for our bikes that were developed. The era of Bonneville modding and aftermarket is coming to a close.
 
#13 ·
Let me get this straight...Its the public policy of this machine shop to openly counterfeit a product instead of doing its own R&D? Ever wonder why camshafts specs are all !@#$ up in the performance world...everyone rips everyone off. I would NEVER do business with this machine shop...if they are cutting corners on R&D...I can imagine quality control...

I am in the "business"....this type of R&D is not R&D ...it is theft of intellectual property.
 
#14 ·
Chill out dude. They asked if there was a port design that I wanted to replicate, so I am asking the TRat braintrust if people have one they're happy with. It would be amazing if there was an affordable CNC porting program for Triumph Bonneville users to use instead of having every Tom, Dick, and Harry trying to reinvent the wheel every time someone wants to get their head ported.

Let's also not start using the terms R&D and intellectual property in relation to the porting of Triumph Bonneville heads. This is a process that has been around for decades. There are a million good ole boys who can do it and they'll all end up with about the same result when finished. Getting it CNC'd just makes it easier, cheaper, and ensures consistent results.

As a side note Millennium Technologies is also one of the premier engine machine shops in the country, their quality control is just fine.
 
#22 ·
in your "enthusiasm" to build your hot bonnie i think you are not understanding what these guys are saying to you Bryan.

my 2 cents is, even if you do find someone willing to remove their ported cylinder head and send it to you this close to the riding season, all you will have is a port job suitable for their engine spec.

what port/valve spec will you use if you have a high comp 865? 904? 994? 1087?

what port/valve spec will you use if you use xy or z cams?

porting is not a simple black or white science.
 
#25 ·
Well it never hurts to ask! As far as the porting goes several companies have offered one size fits all porting jobs with a variety of valve sizes over the years with pretty good success. Unfortunately most of those companies are now out of business and most of their tried and true techniques are locked up inside people's motorcycles.
 
#27 ·
Just saying that Millennium may have a great deal of experience porting heads in general, but you might want to contact a company that has experience getting HP from Triumphs twins.
If TPUSA is out of business, then I would contact Bonneville Performance.
They have actual racing experience in AMA Flat Tracks nationals.
Their motors have to provide a broad/flat power and torque delivery to be competitive.
Just what you would want for a hotrod street bike.
 
#28 ·
Well this exploded nicely lol.

I don't understand the point of all this as I understand this head is now end of life is it not? So isn't this all just really moot? On both sides of this argument?

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#29 ·
:crying:
What a bunch of Nancy's.

The guy is trying to do something good and all you've got are stories of supposed past greatness, dubious claims of knowledge and a forum full of chin music.
Excuses and discouragement, trying to make people think you've all got the black magic.

If you know so much what would it hurt to help out?
Instead you want to come across like you've been building F1 engines and Kevin Cameron calls you when he's in a jam.

Yeah..."Forum Hot Rodders".
Losers.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Chill out this post was placed for people interested in purchasing products that are not as easy to obtain due to questionable business practice. Yes I appreciate Matt and Carlos did great things for some however to shut a business down with no notification, correspondence and as a result still receiving customers goods and payments........ and you tell me again how good these blokes were however not are!

I appreciated their may be a legitimate reason however that does not excuse the posts that are coming in now from customers about payments and no goods received.

Now as for performance modifications it may shock some however the Matt and Carlos show is not the only performance engineers on this planet and or the best or they may still be in business wouldn't they? Or maybe even sold their business off with good will and the technology if it was of value wouldn't they?

Nothing personal for the above just looking at the facts and recent history.

The fact is an engine is an air pump, some are 1 cylinder up to many cylinders yet still an air pump.

Air is not that smart it doesn't know whatever configuration motor it only does what physics dictates to it so it will flow when the right forces are applied by either mechanical or other means as long as you create a differential in pressures.

So we have plenty of excellent engine performance engineering services available with proven technologies from many areas.

I get quite concerned on posts about flow bench testing and readings if flow only is so important why not open the ports to 6" diameter have a 6" throttle body or carburettor installed they will give incredible flow bench readings wouldn't it?

The fact is it is very different tuning for performance a salt flat racer or drag racing engine when you are only looking at near redline performance at full throttle which yes then flow bench will have an important part if tune to suit engine flow requirements at full throttle.

We have street bikes which yes we want extra performance however we are hardly riding at full throttle redline on the street most of the time. Don't we require throttle response, torque across the rev range as well as some full throttle pulling power?

From what I have read the most restrictive area in the cylinder head is the valves and around the valves and valve seats which is the area that will give you the most performance increase in relation to head work than just opening up the ports which will reduce the ride ability, torqued most likely HP.

There are many books and articles on the internet on head porting theory and modifications which I recommend people interested read

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0610phr-cylinder-head-porting/

But beware it may say something about increasing Port velocity which is taboo on this forum ha ha!








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#33 ·


A diagram showing the port radius recommended formation and a comparison from Honda on the changes to port formation to increase the lower radius to increase HP and ........port velocity as well as making it more difficult for the fuel air mixture to flow back out of the combustion chamber

shape


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#34 · (Edited)
Back in 2010 @mikeinva was kind enough to share pictures of the porting done by TPUSA on his 1087. Thanks buddy.

It appears to be opened up quite wide inside, without the floor being raised. I believe this work was done by Fast Freddy who unfortunately also appears to be out of business. Rick Kemph Cylinder Heads is another company they worked with back in the day. I'm going to reach out to them and see what they know.





Source: http://www.triumphrat.net/air-coole...7-1087-2-will-be-born-soon-3.html#post1617179
 
#37 ·
How much longer will these heads be used for racing? If that game is over I see no ethical issues with reverse engineering or making this knowledge public for weekend warriors as it's not for competition anymore. With this perspective I support bsgrimes gresgsbonnie and appreciate qsimdo frustration on this matter (even I can't make him laugh about it).

Otherwise, mikeinva's stance on this proprietary work is ethically valid even if the approach is obtuse. Racing isn't an open source endeavour, it's competitive. Even if tpusa has no stake in the game doesn't mean a project like this should create a free advantage for anyone on the track.

So I ask again, what's the point of all this? With the production run of the air cooled engines now over, is this all not moot now or at least within the year? Or are these endeavours unethical towards the guys on the track? Is there something I'm missing here?

Maybe the answers to these questions could be another black magic secret.

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#38 ·
Maybe the answers to these questions could be another black magic secret.
I think you’re missing the whole point.
it’s not a black magic secret.
Folks like to hotrod these motors for shear enjoyment on the street/road.
Some enjoy building a better motor because they want something unique that few others have.
Some like to push the limits of their machine and get their hands dirty in the process.
A bigger bore Bonnie built properly will put a hell of a smile on your face.

If you look for a practical, financial point to the effort, well there is none.
There will still be faster bikes that can be bought for far less.
It’s about pursuing and satisfying your passion.
How much is that worth?
 
#53 ·
Bryan, I know you're not a fan but they really should be talked to anyway...http://www.carpenterracing.com/sbp_bonneville.htm

They know their way around an engine.



That is, if it's cool with Mike.


Ask and the internet provideth!

I present to you a picture of a Carpenter Racing ported head. Looks to be similar to what we have seen from TPUSA. No fill, just bored out inside and knife edged.




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#58 ·
Now I have never ported a head in my life and I doubt I will ever attempt this, but I am seeing massive similarities between all of the professional shops. 1) I see no floor filling. 2) I see knife edged dividers. 3) I see ports that are opened large and wide. While I would like to believe that filling the floor increases port velocity and makes more power, I have not seen the testing, nor the adoption by those who would have a vested interest in doing it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means that it's the exception, not the rule.

This also gives me great confidence in Millenium's ability to develop a CNC porting program. It doesn't take a lot of looking at these pictures to get the point. Everyone is doing pretty much the same thing. There are very few differences between the big tuners, regardless of what they may be charging your credit card for. Again, no dark magic, just simple old school hot rodding. Unfortunately for us and for the tuners, dark magic was not compatible with our line of little crappy bikes.

Any other conclusions from the peanut gallery?
 
#66 ·
How about this, before this devolves to a dick kicking contest.
Mike, if your in contact with Carlos, I have a head I can ship to him or Mellenium or what ever works best. He designs the head, Millenium creates the CNC profile and adds 150 to the price. Every head sold, 150 goes to Carlos. I don't think anybody here wants to rip anybody off.
 
#72 ·
lol for someone that has done nothing to these bikes your sure talk the talk now show us walk the walk. All I have seen is you copy others post and info. Since 2007 I helped a few on here. you don't know what the facts are with tpusa or what may come along later you should not talk about someone disappearing when you know nothing about.
 
#75 ·
So why aren't you helping now?
Knowledge is not like your virginity; you can give it away and STILL keep it to use for yourself!

If you're trying to be a friend and protect Carlos if he's got something in the works, cool!
But even if he does, he'll always have competition and it only serves to make the end product better, his or anyone else's.

Have to say your protectionist attitude is the kind of poison that's circulating this country.
Diversity in product offerings is a good thing, just like the diversity that created this country.
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean their ideas are without merit.
YOU may benefit directly one day yourself.
 
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