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T100 EFI Problem

10K views 53 replies 13 participants last post by  JohnWKS 
#1 ·
I have just taken delivery of a 2009 T100 EFI Bonneville 50th Anniversary Limited Edition with 11,250 miles on the clock. It has been in storage for 5 months at the Triumph main agent in Bangkok (I live in Thailand). The previous owner had shipped it there for repair because “it would not start” (that’s what I was told second hand) but then, unfortunately, he died. I bought the bike from his estate and it was shipped back to Koh Samui (where I live) presumably, or so I thought, having been repaired and serviced by the main agent.

I rode it home from the pickup point, a distance of about 5 clicks. All the way back it was popping and banging and the throttle response was uneven and unreliable. Sometimes when opening the throttle there was no response and then a handful of power would jump in unexpectedly. Also, idling was uneven with a tendency to stall and there was a strong smell of fuel. It was an interesting trip. My previous ride was a 2004 T100 carbureted model and the difference was marked!

Thinking that it might be dirty fuel (as it had been in storage for so long and fuel problems are not uncommon in Thailand) I took off the tank and cleaned it. Whilst at it, I checked the plugs and found they were loose and done up less than finger-tight. This having come back from the main agent! Well that would explain the smell of petrol and rough running. I was surprised the bike had got me home in that condition. I replaced the plugs with new ones, checked the MAP sensor tubes and, finding one of them a bit loose on the upper sensor, secured them tight with small tie wraps. With the tank now filled with fresh fuel and the battery fully charged, I hoped my problems would be over. Unfortunately not.

The bike starts but the idle is still rough and uneven with a tendency to stall. The smell of fuel has now gone and the backfiring and popping has stopped but the engine will not accelerate above 2,000 rpm.

The MIL is on and I have ordered an OBD II reader so I can check the codes and try to analyse the fault(s). Whilst I wait for this to arrive (nothing happens fast in Koh Samui) I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what other obvious things are worth checking in the meantime? This is the first EFI bike I’ve had so have little experience in this area. Are there any other ‘sticks out like a dog’s’ common EFI faults that I could check?

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated here in paradise.
 
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#3 ·
Thanks for the advice RUPNOK. No, I didn't change the fuel filter because I didn't have one on hand. I wasn't expecting to have to service a bike that's just come back from the main dealer! Anyway, got one on order now. Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
 
#4 ·
Whilst waiting for my new fuel filter to arrive, I changed the oil and filter and checked the air filter. The closed drain pipe under the air filter casing was half full of oil with a half inch what I can only describe as a white slimy substance in the bottom. Does anyone know if this is normal or is it an indication of a problem/leak somewhere? Thanks
 
#6 ·
That is quite normal - the crud is condensed oil vapour from the crank case breather, and of course there is moisture in the vapour too, which is what turns the residue into a whitish slime. Since the crank case vents into the airbox, the drain pipe should be emptied periodically to prevent the slime backing up and filling the air chamber.
 
#9 ·
is that the yellowish clear tube that hangs off underneath the airbox and is closed on one end?

so it's just there to collect oil mist from the crank case right. has any one just snipped off the end so it drains?

I like upsetting greens as they upset me :wink2:
 
#8 ·
Well, if I were there..., as I normally am this time of year (Phuket anyway), I'd come help, and I keep the TuneECU program on my travel lappy with a myriad of MAPs for Triumphs, + the diagnostics. Hope you ordered a cable and not just an OBDII reader?

And I'm not too old, but I remember two out of the four Laverda's in the Laverda group of the bay area had to have factory warranty work done for porous cylinders (mine was one of them that didn't have that issue).

Sounds like a fueling issue though. Or as someone suggested, limp-home mode for the CEL.

Once you get the EFI dialed though, you'll not want carbs again!
 
#15 ·
An update on my problem. I’ve cleaned the fuel tank (there were a few bits and pieces in there and some evidence of a very small amount of moisture in the fuel), changed the fuel filter and cleaned the strainer, put it all back together and put in fresh fuel. The bike starts but is still rough running at idle with frequent stalling unless the throttle is blipped. Also, it will intermittently rev above 2,000 rpm but is inconsistent. Maximum it’s gone up to is 3,500. The MIL light is on and my OBD II data reader arrived today (MaxScan GS500). I had high hopes that this would help me solve the problem. Plugged her in and got the response “No codes are stored in the module!” for both stored and pending Trouble Codes. Now I’m at a loss what to do next. Any advice would be gratefully received. Help!
 
#16 ·
I've been looking at posts on AI removal. They seem to recommend that with AI removal the 02 Lambda sensors should also be removed. The AI sensors on my bike have been removed but the 02 sensors are still in place. Could this be contributing to my problem? I think I'll remove them anyway and from my research, the TTP kit seems to fit the bill. But a possibly dumb question from an inexperienced EFI owner, would I then have to remap the ECU?
 
#17 ·
No you won't need to remap, and it seems unlikely that they are contributing to your problem. Generally folks remove the actual O2 sensors either because they believe the sensors will be damaged if they leave them in situ, (and they may want to re-use them); or because they obstruct about 20% of the diameter of the exhaust header, which is pretty small to begin with.

You have changed the plugs I assume?
 
#18 ·
Thanks for that. Yes, changed the plugs, fitted new MAP sensors and tubes plus ambient pressure sensor. Is it at all possible that a dodgy battery could be causing this? I've got an optimate battery charger and it seems to be taking a lot longer than it should to recharge after starting it several times today.
 
#20 ·
The bike was bought in 2009 direct from the Triumph main agent in Bangkok (Britbikes) as #535 in the 50th anniversary limited edition of 650. It came with the AI removed (but 02 sensors still installed) and with Arrow 2:2 exhaust. The (only) previous owner was fastidious and would not let any of the bike shops here on Koh Samui touch it. He always shipped it back to Britbikes for servicing, maintenance etc. The only mod I know of is that a Garmin GPS was fitted a couple of years ago. When he died 6 months ago it was with Britbikes for repair because "It wouldn't start" as I was told third hand. Unfortunately I can't ask him for more gen since he's no longer with us and, given the state that Britbikes shipped it back in, I don't really feel like asking them (or have much confidence in them). I'd rather fix it myself and get to know her workings. Got to master this EFI stuff first though.

Is there a list somewhere of faults that will bring on the MIL but NOT produce an error code in the ECU? That might help to narrow down the problem. Anyway, thanks for your help.
 
#26 ·
For a 360 degree 2009 EFI with Arrow 2-2, the existing map should be 20265. The base (stock map) should be 20187. You can confirm the base map number from the sticker on the ECU.

I see that you have checked out the fuelling side of things. My suggestion now as to what to look at would be the TPS and injectors. TuneECU will tell you a lot about the electrical side but the problem sounds like the ignition isn't advancing which may be a problem with the ECU itself. I would start by refreshing the tune (20265) and doing the reset adaption.
 
#27 ·
For a 360 degree 2009 EFI with Arrow 2-2, the existing map should be 20265. The base (stock map) should be 20187. You can confirm the base map number from the sticker on the ECU.
Thanks for your help. I've checked the ECU sticker and it is indeed 20187. I've downloaded two maps from the TuneECU website. There are two maps listed for T100 mechanical odometer Arrow 2:2 fuel up to E10 Minimum 91 and these are 20264 (not 5) and 20315. From what I've read, either of these will fit the bill but I'm assuming that the higher the number, the later the update. Will report further when my FTDI cable arrives.
 
#30 ·
you say cleaned out tank etc what about cleaning out the fuel injection, get it flushed through etc.
My logic in trying to solve the problem has reverted back to what I am used to working on carbed bikes.
Is there a spark? Yes, OK the ignition's working. How about fuel? Very likely to have had a tank of bad fuel that's been standing too long (and the quality isn't always that good in Thailand). OK clean out the fuel system. Done the tank, filters, lines etc. On a carbed bike I'd have cleaned those as well but here I am with EFI. Pulling out and cleaning/flushing the injectors looks like a reasonably complex operation and the MIL is on. So before going the injector route, read the codes and fix them first (once the correct FDTI cable gets here) and reload the map in the ECM. After that, I think you're right, do the injectors. If that doesn't do it, it's back to the ignition system looking at coils, cables etc. and if even that doesn't fix it, from what I've read of other Triumph tales of woe, it's down to checking the wiring loom. But even though this bike is 7 years old, it's only done 11,500 miles so there can't have been that much time for wear and tear to compromise system.

I'm sure I'll get this sorted in the end and am very grateful for all the advice I'm getting here along the way.
 
#32 ·
OK, finally got the correct cable from Lonelec, downloaded and installed the latest drivers, PC ports are all working with F32 ART USB selected, plug her in, start TuneECU and all goes according to plan (red flashing then amber flashing) but then the connected green light at the bottom right hand corner of the screen just keeps flickering (rather than flashing) and none of the menu actions under ECU (other than disconnect) become live (stay greyed out). I tried leaving it on for 20 minutes but still the same.

Any ideas now please?
 
#38 ·
yep! as forchetto says, it looks like tuneECU has connected to your ECU ok.

the "diagnostic" page doesn't allow you to make any alterations except use the throttle voltage to set your TPS. that is why everything is greyed out.

you need to swap between the "map edit", "diagnostic"and "test" pages to carry out different tasks, these icons are found in the top right hand side of the programme.

click on the "map edit" icon to see which map is loaded in the ECU, now is a good time to make a copy of your map, so click "read map" and then save it to your map folder.

the "test" page is mainly for checking and adjusting throttle body balance.
 
#39 ·
yep! as forchetto says, it looks like tuneECU has connected to your ECU ok.

the "diagnostic" page doesn't allow you to make any alterations except use the throttle voltage to set your TPS. that is why everything is greyed out.

you need to swap between the "map edit", "diagnostic"and "test" pages to carry out different tasks, these icons are found in the top right hand side of the programme.
Well now I feel like dummy of the month! Durr...... Thank you for that. Yes all's working fine now with TuneECU!

So now I've had a look at the map currently loaded. It's 20264 with a file size of 293KB. The 20264 I've downloaded from TuneECU is 233KB. When I compare the two files the programme shows no differences. But I've noticed that the SAI & O2 sensors are currently active.

Now the SAI injectors have been removed on my bike and the inlets in the cylinder heads are plugged. But on investigating further, I find that the rubber hose to the airbox is still there along with all the rest of the plumbing so it's just venting to air. Also, when I ran the test on the SAI sensor it reported normal. I guess fixing this properly and disabling the SAI might help the idling problem?

I'll let you know.
 
#45 ·
OK this morning I've reloaded the 20264 map into the ECU, done the reset adaptation thing but getting exactly the same problem. I'm thinking I'm going to need to pull out the injectors to check for contamination from that old fuel. Does anyone know of any good videos to run me through the process? Thanks
 
#46 ·
John, seems I'll be stopping through BKK for a few days in November or early Dec. PM me your contact info, would love to get my hands greasy there since I'll have precious little to do other than journalism horses**t.

Will have my lappy with me with TUNEECU on it and can bring a cable if need be. If you have a DVM, we can troubleshoot most components (except perhaps a bad ECM). LMK.
 
#47 ·
I’ve been off the air for a while for personal reasons. Have just got my bike running and would just like to update (and thank) everyone who helped me with my problem.

After a lot of diagnosing and replacing parts, sensors etc. (see the post thread) I came to the conclusion that maybe the ECU was faulty. Managed to find a second hand one on eBay from exactly the same model (owner had totalled it) and fitted it with high hopes; but to no avail. Still wouldn’t start.

So, went back to square one. Rechecked everything with TuneECU and all parameters were in limits with no fault codes. Both plugs were sparking so it had to be fuel right? But the pump was fine and I’d cleaned everything except the injectors. Wasn’t sure if I had the expertise to do this myself so got a friend with more experience than me with EFI to help.

There was some dirt in the injectors so, hopefully, that was it. Nope, still wouldn’t start. What else was left? I’d thought of the fuel pressure regulator but it seemed OK when I’d cleaned the tank and changed the filter. But a new pair of eyes found that it wasn’t closing fully so the fuel pressure was down. There was also a split in one of the throttle body adaptors (between the body and the airbox). Fitted new parts (replaced all of the rubber pipes just to be on the safe side, after all the bike’s 9 years old and if one’s gone, the others can’t be far behind) and, finally, result! She’s come back to life!!

Being my first EFI bike, I’ve learned a lot of lessons in this process. Why didn’t I check the fuel pressure in the first place since I originally suspected it might have been caused by dirty fuel after the bike had been standing for 4 or 5 months? Answer is that the manual says I needed a special tool which I don’t have, so I skipped it. Big mistake.

One of the good things to come out of all of this is that I’m now very familiar with my ride and will be happy to tackle any job in the future. But, just as important, I’ve been overwhelmed by the help, support and knowledge that I’ve received on this forum. I’d like to say a big thank you to everyone who has helped me. It’s good to know that the brotherhood of bikers is alive and well worldwide especially since I live in a place where Triumphs are pretty much a rarity. Thank you all.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Well done. Concerning the importance of checking of fuel pressure, I once did a 2-post, long and detailed article about it, (I think the only time anyone has tackled that subject thoroughly in this forum). It turned out to be as popular as bacon in Jerusalem with only 2 replies...:(

The fotos have gone, but I might put them up again in the unlikely event that anyone is interested:

http://www.triumphrat.net/air-coole...40489-bonneville-efi-fuel-pressure-check.html

I also had to put up with comments in other threads about being an ostentatious twat because I bought the special tool (nothing more than a length of hose with suitable connectors and a pressure gauge stuck in the middle). I then suggested a cheap alternative tool on post 34 of the thread below but that fell on stony ground as well:

http://www.triumphrat.net/air-cooled-twins-technical-talk/410209-how-to-drain-efi-fuel-tank-4.html
 
#51 · (Edited)
I also had to put up with comments in other threads about being an ostentatious twat because I bought the special tool (nothing more than a length of hose with suitable connectors and a pressure gauge stuck in the middle). I then suggested a cheap alternative tool on post 34 of the thread below but that fell on stony ground as well:

http://www.triumphrat.net/air-cooled-twins-technical-talk/410209-how-to-drain-efi-fuel-tank-4.html
Well all I can say is that If I'd seen your posts it would have saved me a lot of pain and heartache, ostentatious twat or not. I suppose someone who actually uses a torque wrench to tighten things up instead of just 'doing it by feel' could be put in the same category by the 'bodge it and hope for the best' bunch. After over 45 years of riding and maintaining my bikes, I know which approach I prefer. And thanks again for all your help on knowledge on the intricacies of EFI. :smile2:
 
#50 · (Edited)
Well thanks for the compliment but for 3 of those months I was taking some medication which impaired my ability to operate normally so I had to take a rest because every time I took out a bolt or a screw I couldn't remember where I'd put it or where it went when I came to put it back on the bike, let alone find the tool that I needed ;-)
 
#52 ·
Triggering the MIL.....
This occurred on my 2012-110th Anno Bonnie:
Did a service with the battery disconnected, when I got it all back together, and started it up, the MIL light would not go off, but the bike ran correctly.
The MIL light extinguished once I reset the clock!
 
#53 ·
So did you actually replace the FPR? I'm thinking your whole issue might have been the split boot on the Throttle body....any air getting into the system from leaks can mess up EFI running.

Now that she's running, you should do some basic setting adjustments...like the Throttle Balance adjustment. Do this while TuneECU is hooked up, engine already at operating temp...check the MAP pressure readings on the Diagnositcs page (or which ever one shows both MAP readings side by side). These two numbers need to be within 20-10 hPa's///the closer the better. The absolute readings are not so important. To adjust, the cross point adjustment screw located between the Throttle Bodies (usually has a blob of white or yellow paint) a 1/4-1/2 turn...watching what the readouts do. When you've got them set, try re-checking at various RPM to see if they continue to be close.

Let the bike cool 3+ hours/overnight and perform the Reset Adaptations process....start the bike without touching the throttle (you can use the fast idle if needed)...let it idle until the TPS light goes out in Tune ECU (or until the temp reached a bit over 60 Degrees....no longer than 15-20 minutes). I like to have Bike on center stand, not on side stand, for this operation as the oil pump gear is plastic which might overheat since oil will be off level.
 
#54 ·
So did you actually replace the FPR?
Yes I did. On close inspection (with eyes that are a lot younger than mine) I'm told it wasn't closing fully.

I'm thinking your whole issue might have been the split boot on the Throttle body....any air getting into the system from leaks can mess up EFI running.
I'm sure that very likely had something to do with it as well.


Let the bike cool 3+ hours/overnight and perform the Reset Adaptations process....start the bike without touching the throttle (you can use the fast idle if needed)...let it idle until the TPS light goes out in Tune ECU
Yes, thanks, I've already done that.


Now that she's running, you should do some basic setting adjustments...like the Throttle Balance adjustment. Do this while TuneECU is hooked up, engine already at operating temp...check the MAP pressure readings on the Diagnositcs page (or which ever one shows both MAP readings side by side). These two numbers need to be within 20-10 hPa's///the closer the better. The absolute readings are not so important. To adjust, the cross point adjustment screw located between the Throttle Bodies (usually has a blob of white or yellow paint) a 1/4-1/2 turn...watching what the readouts do. When you've got them set, try re-checking at various RPM to see if they continue to be close.
OK, thank you for your advice. I'll have a look at that as well.
 
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