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My opinion is probably unpopular

16K views 120 replies 44 participants last post by  DriftlessRider 
#1 · (Edited)


As many of you know, the image above is the 'Unpopular Opinion Puffin' meme. I know what I'm about to say may by an unpopular opinion, but let's keep in mind that I'm no expert, I'm comparing apples & oranges and who cares what I think.

I got to take the new Bonneville for a ride yesterday. I went out with a group of folks testing the Tiger and as I've pre-ordered the Thruxton R, I was allowed to 'get a feel for it' on their only Bonnie. We were out for 20-25 minutes over back roads, in town and a little bit of freeway. The bike was the 2016 Bonneville T120 in Cranberry Red and Aluminium Silver.

First what i liked:

Stunningly beautiful
Highest quality build, fit and finish
Beautiful twin analog gauges with LCD info you can toggle through
Seat comfort, ease of controls
All-in-one Kill/Start switch

What I didn't like:
Lack of power - I was stunned at how anemic it felt. Sure... If you're at 3,000 rpm and pin the throttle open, it will zoom ahead*. But if you're going along at 3,000 rpm and open the throttle a bit, or even a moderate amount, not much happens. It just doesn't accelerate - blew my mind!
* Let's define 'zoom ahead' Say you're in 3rd at 3k doing about 45 and pin it, you will soon be up to 60 and need to change to 4th. but if that's red-line, it happened pretty quick without much gain. They asked me to keep it under 5k (keep it under 4k until I was on my way back) and I tried to meet their request, but a couple of times I really couldn't believe that's all there was and may have exceeded that in my checking it out. I can see how you can probably get to 90 or so, as I never got out of 4th, but I really don't think you're going to feel a rush of acceleration or much excitement getting there (my opinion - I honestly hope yours is different, if that's what you're into).

Engine braking - Shouldn't there be some? If you're going along at 4k or whatever in 2nd, 3rd or 4th and roll off, you may as well have pulled in the clutch. It felt like 1973 Ford Galaxy with an automatic transmission. Never once did I feel like there was much slowing down by closing the throttle no matter what gear, rpm or speed.

Lack of sound - Modern bikes crack me up. About the best 'roar' you can hope for is the equivalent of a Honda 90 or a quiet lawn mower and this bike is no different. Certainly this is due to regulation, but for crying out loud - It's a Triumph Bonneville - me and the 5 Tigers I was out with barley turned a head. Who knew we were there?

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but my Street Triple is so, so much more of a motorcycle in so many ways! If only it looked as awesome as the 2016 Bonnies!

So, without actually riding the Thruxton that's on its way to me or taking the Street Twin out for a whirl, I am confident without a doubt, somebody is in for a fabulous surprise when one of the 'already sold' Diablo Red Thruxton Rs has suddenly become available.

I have become used to the bike I have, and no matter how excited I was to see the new offerings, I can see no compelling reason to trade off my little ripper.
 
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#2 ·
I had the same experience with the street twin. When I tried to really open it up it just gave up the ghost.


I would have liked to have tried it out on a twisty road to see how the gearing and torque work in that environment.


I found the power maybe a tad better then my V7 which is nothing to write home to mom about. The later is a nice bike on back roads but on an open road, avoid headwinds cause it will slow you down.
 
#4 ·
I was considering looking at the new T120 bikes with the 1200 motor, but the motor is in the wrong style bike for me.
I might like to see the new 1200 Thruxton R motor in an America or Speedmaster......but I know that would probably never happen.
In fact, I am leaning toward the possibility that Triumph MAY end up either discontinuing the cruisers or simply not doing much to the cruiser motors other than detuning them some more to comply with the new regulations. They MIGHT put the new Street Twin 900 motor in them.....not sure, time will tell.

To each their own, but at my age I like the cruiser style and find it very comfortable for my bad back, but I did put on an aftermarket seat to help with that. The Speedmaster design and handlebars have me leaning just slightly forward and I really like it and so does my back. I wouldn't mind having a Thruxton R to ride sometimes for shorter trips but I can't afford two bikes and I love my Speedmaster after I put a TTP tune on it along with other parts and mods. My TTP tune gave me approx. 8% more HP and approx. 14% more torque across the whole range. It pulls like a train now IMO (added torque) all the way up to 7k+ RPM and then flattens out per the dyno chart from TTP.......it redlines over 8k. I feel I have a somewhat sporty cruiser that not only handles well but also accelerates pretty darn good all the way up to 7k+ RPM. No, it's not a crotch rocket and I know that.......but I do like as much power and speed out of my so called cruiser bike that I can afford without doing MAJOR mods. I'm getting older now and can't monetarily afford as much as before, but I still love accelerating fast in a straight line. I feel my bike is an excellent choice for somewhat older people such as myself that are on a budget but still need some decent acceleration and handling plus a really nice sound with TOR's.

I would have to take a new T120 for a test ride to see how the motor actually compares to my Speedmaster's, but I have a real strong feeling it won't compare that great to my Speedy....especially with my TTP tune, etc. (and I didn't spend a fortune on the mods).
Obviously all the above is just my opinion, maybe the T120 would surprise me......but I doubt it.
 
#5 ·
Engine braking - Shouldn't there be some? If you're going along at 4k or whatever in 2nd, 3rd or 4th and roll off, you may as well have pulled in the clutch. It felt like 1973 Ford Galaxy with an automatic transmission. Never once did I feel like there was much slowing down by closing the throttle no matter what gear, rpm or speed.
For my riding style, if true, this would be a fatal flaw. Never did an aftermarket tune on mine because a few reported reduced engine braking with TTP. Hardly know the meaning of the word "brakes"! :eek: :confused:
 
#22 ·
Ahhhhhhhhh
Roasted (Red and Yellow), Sliced, Covered in Sharp/Salty Goat Cheese Crumbles ........... then drizzled with a Balsamic Reduction.
Served warm .................. with a Pinot Noir.

A great precursor to a Big Fat Bone-In Ribeye (Rare/Charred).

Way to go Vitesse .................... now I am hungry! :wink2:
 
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#7 ·
Street Triple is one of the best bikes out there. Not only it is best in its class, it gives 800cc bikes, like FZ and Brutale, run for their money. Even Thruxton R is 85 lbs heavier than Street Triple and makes 12 hp less.

Like it or not, Bonnie line is the new cruiser. There is no way these bikes can hang with Street triple and other modern naked bikes.

As far as looks are concern, it's mainly an age thing and nostalgia. Everyone 25 and under at my work thinks my Street Triple looks a lot better than my Scrambler, so there is that.
 
#26 ·
Using Triumph's numbers (PS rating) the Street Triple is listed at 106 and the Thruxton R at 98, so a difference of 8 HP is shown there. For weight I have found the R listed at 480 wet and the Street Triple at 417, 63 pounds lighter.

The big number is the torque. 68 NM for the Street Triple , 112 NM for the Thruxton and Thruxton R

Glen
 
#8 ·
A "few" possibly noticing something negative regarding an aftermarket tune is NOT a good concensus IMO.
The majority of opinions need to be looked at.
I have NOT ever noticed any reduced engine braking after installing my TTP tune and that truly is the norm from my research.
The gain in torque and HP is excellent with my TTP tune along with much smoother overall running.
I had numerous running issues with my lousy factory tune, in fact it was dangerous.
Now the bike runs as it should of from the factory, plus more power.

It "sounds" like the new Thruxton R 1200 motor might be pretty good from the factory.
I'm sure that if Mike (PieMan) at TTP ever decides to offer tunes for all the new motors they will be excellent
 
#13 ·
Everybody knows how screwed up the Speedmasters were, including TTP. :cool: T-100 running TORS tune isn't awful (on an '09) and plugging the AI kills 95% of the snatch.

The "source" of those reports was considered. All were seasoned riders, mostly in the UK and Germany. Some were OK with the trade-off. I would NOT be. "Horses for courses" and YMMV, even on a T-100. ;)

BTW, TTP may have his job cut out for him trying to unlock a Euro 4 ECU. Not impossible but ugly. With RBW an inline solution may work better, e.g. PC-V. Maybe Rexxer will work as it does with Siemens equipped Ducatis. Not a DIY project though. :cool:
 
#11 ·
it could be set up, it could be breakin, it could be frame of reference but I do sort of which I'd start hearing some gushing reports about how wonderful the new 'High Torq' engine is. 'Could be worse tho, at least you didn't say anything about Beets......
 
#12 · (Edited)
The lack of engine braking may be a result of and controlled by the ride by wire system. Those systems don't give you a 1:1 response based on what your throttle hand is doing. The computer is deciding what to do. But, maybe the system used by Triumph isn't that sophisticated. Some love engine braking and others don't. My Ninja has an idle adjustment knob even though it's FI. That's so you can up the idle and reduce engine braking for spirited riding and smoother transitions with the throttle.
 
#14 ·
My Ninja has an idle adjustment knob even though it's FI. That's so you can up the idle and reduce engine braking for spirited riding and smoother transitions with the throttle.
All I want for Christmas is the response of 40mm Dellortos with an accelerator pump! ;) Chop the throttle = popping the chute and gassing it = hitting the nitrous button. :D

BTW, my 796 doesn't lack engine braking. Might take an extra downshift vs the T-100. If I screw up, the APTC clutch kicks in. ;)
 
#20 · (Edited)
Is it possible the OP had the "riding modes" function toggled to the "rain" setting?. The T120 has 2 modes:

- ROAD Standard throttle response.

- RAIN Reduced throttle response when
compared to the ROAD setting, for
wet or slippery conditions.

Also Felony has a good point about the throttle valve not being controlled directly in a fly-by-wire set-up. Perhaps the valve is kept slightly open by the system to avoid the vacuum that (mainly) causes engine braking in the first place.
 
#21 ·
Is it possible the OP had the "riding modes" function toggled to the "rain" setting?. The T120 has 2 modes:

- ROAD Standard throttle response.

- RAIN Reduced throttle response when
compared to the ROAD setting, for
wet or slippery conditions.
At least one of the reviewers said that the throttle worked better on "rain". Makes you wonder about these boys, right? ;)
 
#28 ·
My SV650S had so much engine braking that my brake pads never wore down. You get used to an engine's characteristics. Too much though and over bumps you have to be light handed on the throttle grip. Problem for new riders with so much engine brake. Nothing like a 2 stroke with throttle off and the bike is still accelerating hard into the corner. Rather exciting.
 
#41 ·
A slipper clutch won't completely remove engine braking just reduce it, depending on how its set up you could get a lot or none. I suspect most of the lack of engine braking is open throttle possibly assisted by adding fuel to keep engine rotating (as Forchetto stated), I'm glad they've done it, the Ducati M1200 i had and hated so much had ridiculous engine braking just backing off the gas the smallest amount had the front end buried in the tarmac, virtually impossible to keep smooth. Of the catalogue of things I hated about that bike that feature was at the top (almost).

It would also be a good idea to have least engine braking in Rain mode if that was in-fact the case.
 
#32 · (Edited)
One of the problems with test ride is that coming from a bike you are familiar with - all you notice is how different it is. Even when I rent a Harley or BMW and then come back to my Bonneville it feels strange for the first hour or so. Getting back on it after a weekend on a HD the Bonny felt so narrow, buzzy. revvy ...And even the flaws, such as the Bonneville cheap suspension, don't seem to be noticeable at first.

Then about an hour or two later I find myself chucking her into a corner, or steering with my knee on the tank pads. I can find a lot of speed in the Bonneville that doesn't seem to be there at first. She can play the speed conservation game in the turns and that lets the Bonny keep up nicely with some more powerful bikes. Like a Mazda Miata holding its own on a track against a Mustang. At least that is the case where I most like to ride, up in the hills. Triumph is making a lot out of the torque numbers and I actually think that is a mistake. The Bonneville to me is about the balance of power and handling. But they seems to want us all to ride like urban hipsters short shifting from our brownstone apartment and parking it in front of a brewery or 3 blocks away at Sexy Taco.

Depending on how long you were riding, and the type of riding you do - and what you came from you might get a different impression.
 
#34 ·
One of the problems with test ride is that coming from a bike you are familiar with - all you notice is how different it is. Even when I rent a Harley or BMW and then come back to my Bonneville it feels strange for the first hour or so. Getting back on it after a weekend on a HD the Bonny felt so narrow, buzzy. revvy ...And even the flaws, such as the Bonneville cheap suspension, don't seem to be noticeable at first.
I definitely have to agree with you on this. I even have this problem when I switch back and forth between my Speedmaster and my Bonneville, both 790s, especially because the riding positions are so different. I also wonder if the lack of engine compression braking is intentional in design? It seems everywhere I go anymore I see those "no engine compression braking" signs. I wonder if this is part of their attempt to address "noise pollution"? The T120s also have dual discs and calipers at a weight that seems close to what the early America models were and they ran single disc set ups and still do...
 
#35 ·
I would add a couple of comments: First, if the bike you rode was quite new with few miles on it, the lack of engine "oomph" could very well relate to a stiff engine. My '14 Bonneville had the stiffest engine I've ever seen and it was a bit of a stone when I did my test ride on it prior to purchasing. Given the weight of the beast and the stated engine power, I wasn't really expecting to have to strap myself to the saddle and top performance wasn't why I was interested in it anyway. However, it now is approaching 3000 miles and the engine still continues to loosen and smooth out and I'd have to say that the performance is such that I never worry about being left at the stop sign.

Second, engine braking is a fairly complex mix of valve timing, compression ratio, and fueling. Without knowing how Triumph has mapped that mix for closed throttle operation, it's pretty hard to comment on why you see what you see. I suspect that what you see has a whole lot to do with emissions requirements since the rapid tradition from open throttle to closed throttle is a source of a whole lot of un-burned hydrocarbon emission so the manufacturers have to resort to some pretty fancy steps to keep that under control. One offshoot is often lack of engine braking. I'm not sure Triumph is the one to blame for this.
 
#38 ·
i have been looking into a lighter cruiser, my 2012 maggies slightly rearset pegs are not a comfy as my 13 hammer's forward controls. so been shopping, tried the scout NA, gonna try an Octane this summer, both polaris models have typical poor suspension + the braking equip being identical on both, well its almost as bad as my 06 porkster. the Octane prolly as comfy as the scout. i never rode a speedmaster + "kinda" like its looks + setting on one feels good. being a bit heavier + it feels it just setting, my 2012 maggie is nimble for sure. wondering if a standard bonnie pegs are much different, again setting on one it feels better as does the taller scrambler. i was hoping for a 1200 speedmaster but next year maybe. its a tough compare as my well sorted 2012 has EXCELLENT upgraded braking + suspension + i prefer the simplicity of air-oil cooling + its lightweight handling, + i really don't need more power as the 106 cu in Vic Hammer has bottom + top end grunt a plenty. meanwhile i will enjoy "shopping" + riding as summer is very near.
 
#40 ·
remember, the frames are the same on the 865's. What makes them feel different when you sit on them is the seat, the bars, where they put the pegs, and the height of the shocks. Maggie's also have a smaller front wheel which changes the rake a bit but odds are, that's not what you notice in terms of comfort. I'm 6'2" and in stock form the Maggie does feel small, so does the T100 for that matter, the Scrambler feels best. However, lowering the pegs, raising the seat an installing T100 length shocks opened that up quite a bit. Now the Maggie feels just as comfortable as the Scambler to me but I also have lighter steering and tubeless tires. You might want to try lowering the pegs,
you'd be surprised how big a difference that can make. Twisted Throttles' varios let you vary the angle (position rotates like hands on a clock) which can help with forward/rearward too.


Now, back to bitching about the new bikes....
 
#46 · (Edited)
Jumping from a street triple onto a T-120 would be about the equivalent of jumping off a thoroughbred onto a short blocky quarter horse . All good breeds but all designed , built and bred to perform differently .
 
#47 ·
I have a 2012 Street Triple and a 03 carbed T-100 The Bonnie has some mods, CR carbs. K&N pods Preditor Exhaust, Thruxton front wheel and bars, Progressive springs and shocks. Your the usual stuff. The Street Triple does almost everything perfectly and the Bonnie is fast enough for the type of roads I ride on. I enjoy both rides and would not ever get rid of either. That saying, I have not ridden any of the new Triumphs and probably won't if ever. My point being, you cannot compare a Street Triple with a Bonneville, they are apples and oranges. I do have to admit I ride the Bonnie more than the Street. But it boils down to what you like. That's why they make different bikes. My Bonnie has plenty of engine braking, but then we aren't talking about her. Can't wait to meet a new one on the road. It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow.
 
#49 ·
It would be impressive if they'd give us a chassis and brakes that could do something with the power. Instead we get the same ol' cruiser bulls*** we've been getting from the Americans since the 70's.
 
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#58 ·
thanks for that suggestion rider33, i do realize the relationship of controls as well as foot placement effects ones comfort, i do like the maggies nimbleness for sure. i will be checkin my options as summer arrives as i am happily retired with lots of time + adequate financials. being older but better than most my age i can ride my Vic Hammer for hours comfortably with its forward controls + surprisingly good handling for a bike of its type. it totally blows away my 100 lb lighter traded 06 porkster for ease of riding + handling, it does not feel like it weighs 675 lb, a great cruiser with a ton of top + bottom end + simply air + oil cooled!!
 
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