I know that the title of my post is provocative, but I just read Alan Cathcart's review of the new Street Twin in Motorcycle Classics and couldn't help thinking of the parallels with HD.
Harley has been known for producing motorcycles true to their heritage; twin cylinder, air cooled motorcycles that are as close to the old machines as they can be (within current EPA and DOT constraints). Harley's have always ignored horsepower and focused on low-end torque. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a Harley marketing brochure that listed the horsepower of any given model. After all, 68 horsepower from a 1340 cc engine isn't exactly 'brag-worthy.' Also, Harley recently radically modified its high-end motorcycles, such as the "Electro Glide" models (like my Ultra Limited) by adding water cooling to the heads. My 2013 Ultra Limited redlines at something like 5,200 RPM but puts out close to 100 ft/lbs. of torque at peak.
According to Mr. Cathcart (and discussed in this forum), the new Street Twin has only 3/4 of the horsepower of the models it will replace (claimed 55hp). However, the bike has an 18% increase in torque, peaking at 3,200 RPM (claimed 59 ft/lb.). Also, the new bike has water cooled heads. It seems that these factors are a trend these days.
Mr. Cathcart relates that the new Street Twin is a 'better' ride than the outgoing models. He cites the increased low-end torque, the vibration free motor (due to the 270 degree crank and other vibration canceling measures?) and a better riding position.
So, like Harley Davidson, Triumph is producing modern motorcycles that attempt to resemble the old classics as closely as possible within constraints. Now, Triumph has introduced water cooling to the heads (which Harley did in 2014), and focusing on torque vice horsepower. The latter implies that the Street Twin has a relatively low redline (5,900 RPM?). Triumph apparently doesn't want the rider to be concerned with RPM any longer either as the Street Twin does not have a tachometer (hmmm, like the Harley's?).
Yes, I know that Harley Davidson motorcycles are not comparable to Triumph's motorcycles, but...
Harley sells 3x as many bikes as Triumph... Triumph would love to be like them.
Sadly though, I think you're correct... Triumph has also largely been ignoring the sport bikes for years now, similar-ish to what Harley did with Buell. It seems the Bonneville line is the flagship now, while a few years back the Bonnies were cool bikes that Triumph continued to make (looking at you, Kawi W800), but were largely in the background.
I don't think Triumph is really following any other brand but is producing the classic twin in its third iteration(790,865, 900/1200) according to current engineering thinking and emission restraints. BMW came out with its water cooled(head) engine in 2013. All three brands are evolving their iconic engines and bikes to keep up interest in them for an ever changing and fickle buying public. Harley does have its CVO and Screaming Eagle line that does address engine performance. All three engine designs were never power houses in terms of HP but were always torque concentrated. BMW has pushed the HP of its boxer to highest levels, but I feel that's in response to their I4 performance bikes and wanting to shed "your granddad's boxer. With Triumph's other performance models, I see them sticking to the roots of the twin without going down the high performance "Ducati" path. Just my take on it.
HD sells a lot more than 3X as many bikes as Triumph. Triumph sells, like Ducati, under 60K bikes per year. The Daytona 675 has done very well in the market place and it's tough for Triumph to go head to head with the Japanese in terms of their volume, long market history of making performance sport bikes. I like the way Triumph remains iconic and different from the others. Except for cloning BMW's F800GS and RT models.
HD sells a lot more than 3X as many bikes as Triumph. Triumph sells, like Ducati, under 60K bikes per year. The Daytona 675 has done very well in the market place and it's tough for Triumph to go head to head with the Japanese in terms of their volume, long market history of making performance sport bikes. I like the way Triumph remains iconic and different from the others. Except for cloning BMW's F800GS and RT models.
Whoops, the figures I saw on HD were for the US market alone.. in the US, Harley sells ~3x more motorcycles than Triumph does worldwide. World to world, HD sells ~5x more.
The Daytona did very well for a few years, yes. Just like the Speed Triple did. Both of those bikes have since been surpassed by the competition, and Triumph appears to be doing nothing to counter. Ducati & Aprilia sell similar volumes to Triumph and stay relevant.
One thing you forgot to mention is weight. I long recall a Harley exec presenting at Gleneagles in Scotland at intellectual property conference. The main cause of injuries to Harley riders is broken legs, resulting from the bike crushing the rider at stand still. I don't think the Street Twin will present you with that problem. By all means expose performance differentials. But think more widely about the pros and cons when you post a rather glass is half full observation.
Perhaps that's why I didn't mention it. No similarity in that regard.
Glass is half full? I meant no such thing. The post was just a thought about similar development and focus on torque. For a street bike I personally prefer low-end torque over top-end horsepower.
Besides, I consider all glasses always full. Sometime they are just partially filled with air.
I don't think this is provacative, I actually think that you nailed the reason that Harley riders respect the Bonnie/Thruxton crowd. Triumph has done a good job of staying close to the original bikes that we all remember with the classics, that is why I like mine. It is also why all of my friends (all Harley riders) like my bike.
The new bikes are no different in my opinion. They still have the "classic" look only better performance and sixth gear. Harley has improved over the years in a very similar way. BTW - the 103 motor with the 6 speed box is wonderful:wink2:
I'm just going to go out on a limb, and just guess, that Triumph MIGHT not be going the way of Harley-Davidson.
For anyone's convenience, I attached 4 images to reference how I came upon this educated guess. Please Note: I am, NOT a motorcycle expert, so there may be a chance that I'm incorrect.
Don't forget HD makes the Sportster line which is more relevant to Triumph's twins than the big twins. No water cooled 883 or 1200 yet. Of course, the Sportster is more of a boat anchor.
Agreed... I was thinking that as well... But I didn't say that because I thought it was sort of a reach... Like you said... total boat anchor... And a total unbalanced washing machine at any traffic lights. And The top-yoke is still of a Harley since it's like three feet higher than the seat. More of a cruiser frame (smaller), than a bench frame. But you're right, that would be the closest thing, I suppose. Cheers.
If it was able to be purchased that way... I think many people, including me, would have, or wanted to, own that at one point. So I don't think heavily modified motorcycles from either manufacturer carry any real weight... Cool looking Sportster though!
the XLCR, a wonderful bike. As a college kid in the '70's I had a Yamaha RD but the local shop also was a Harley dealer. In a back corner & mostly forgotten was a left over XLCR that I would visit every chance I got. 'No way I could afford it but it was a beautiful, pure beast. The problem was, nobody bought them. W650's were in the states for two years too. I bought one but they sat on dealer's floors for the most part as well. In fact the Hinkley Bonnies took a while to catch on too, Triumph stuck with them tho, they couldn't afford to let that fail, just like they can't with the relaunch either. People make a lot of noise about the innovative bikes they'd like to see but all too often the most innovative of them gather dust on dealer's floors. I hope the new Thruxton R's sell as well as the talk would have it, it's as close to a XLCR in spirit as I've seen.
They should totally come out with modern version of that again... Maybe make it off the new 750 platform... but bored bigger, and lean more toward the Bonneville or Thruxton... Being as the pre-sales show there would surely be a market to at least give it a shot.
I can see the similarities between Triumphs modern classics/cruisers and the HD line...but the similarities stop right there.
Harley has been comparable to Cadillac(pre-CTS) for decades now-American made heavy machines made to go comfortably, semi-quickly in straight lines. All while keeping the styling classic, safe and bland.
It's obvious HD has no models to even compare to a Tiger, Street and Speed Triple, Daytona etc....which is too bad because based on the 5x-the-sales stat, Harley has all of the money and resources to develop class leading bikes in every category...but they just keep dropping more redundant turds year after year.
I wish Harley would make a true innovative performance bike.
anyone that looks at this Brochure from Trumpet website and Does Not see the blatant HD path they are going down is just a Corp stooge for this co.
Not unlike the HD dopes in vests and flames etc.... Both now buy Logos, Union Jacks, Americana etc... that are made in China.... Its funny that the Trumpet Pirates like to point these HD guys out when they are the exact same. Brand Loyalty but complain about dealerships non stop... http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=cb378ee4-2c5f-4d8d-8c67-5e111c271e7e
Indeed. What's remarkable is the sheer ingenuity in hiding all the water-cooling paraphernalia so well. The radiator can't be helped as you need the surface area to do its thing, but the absence of pump covers, hoses, header tanks, thermostat housings etc is an object lesson in combining engineering and the arts IMHO. A lot of other maker's liquid-cooled engines look a complete mess.
The same goes for the ingenious way they've concealed the 3-way catalytic converter leaving what appears to be a normal sized exhaust system. Just look at some other makers monstrosities, even the style conscious Italians, like this Guzzi Griso with its 7" diameter silencers:
If you think about the so called 'merchandising' of the new bonnevilles, one has to consider the accessories side of the business which is right out of the Harley playbook. So in that sense, Triumph is copying Harley. I would love to hear what Harley makes more money at...but no doubt it is the merchandising and part side of the business and not profit thru selling motorcycles. Triumph is trying to capture if not this direct market...Harley is much more cruiser focused...but clearly the 'mystique' of their retro bikes for nostalgic boomers pining for a simplier if not happier time and their bun donning hipster offspring who are more image than substance.
So there are of course both similarities and difference and it would be a stretch to call them parallel twins. ...ducks.
Not sure that you can blame Triumph for wanting to create a buzz like HD does as far as a lifestyle brand. John Bloor didn't invest $35mil of his own money to just break even year to year. It's a business after all selling a product that isn't necessary like a bottle of milk or loaf of bread. With buyers who have the attention spans of chipmunks, you need all the marketing you can muster. I'm sure all dealerships of bikes and cars make more money on service and accessories than on the car or bike that they sell. I remember a dealership up in Boston that kept adding bike brands to stay afloat. He wished all the Japanese makers made cars, jet skis, etc so he had more inventory to sell. He started out as a sole Kawa dealer then added Ducati, Yamaha, Triumph and maybe more by now. It's a difficult business. Everyone not part of the business seems to have all the answers when it comes to the product and marketing and sales. Hindsight is great for the customer. I've been self employed most of my working life and I can tell you it ain't easy to run a business that needs to convince the buying public why they should shop with you, buy your product or services.
I'm a sport bike guy. I look at the new Triumph twins, and I don't see anything that I want to buy. However, Triumph makes other bikes. I was mainly looking at Gixxers when I was in the market for a new (to me) bike, but I ended up going with a Street Triple. What will my next one be? Who knows? It might indeed be a Gixxer, or another Street Triple, possibly a Speed Triple, maybe a Daytona, FZ-09 is not out of the question, nor is some other bike yet to be released. I'm not particularly brand loyal. Whichever manufacturer makes the closest thing to my ideal bike at the time I'm looking to buy will probably get my purchase. Triumph is still in that game. As are Yamaha and Suzuki.
I think some are reading far more into my post than what I intended. It was never my intention to infer that Triumph was going to make bikes like Harleys. My main point was simply that Triumph is now focusing on torque rather than horsepower as Harley has for decades.
Here is how I see it(over looking all triumph marketing bs)triumph was stuck between a rock and a hard place meeting the new laws, they couldn't do it with out water cooling, they also couldn't make a 8000 rpm twin pass the laws they knew they could not get the hp at high rpm and pass the law. So they took the easy way out made the 865 to a 900(with less hp) 1200s with less hp then they could of got out of the 865 by only going 1200 cc. Any one that knows anything about motors knows the bigger the motor the more torque it makes. They had to do what they had to do but to market it as being so much better is just bull. I don't think they wanted to copy HD but the do make power closer to the same way. It is what it is.Like it or not.
I think the story on the new 1200 is a bit different.
Triumph could certainly have produced an EU compliant machine with liquid cooling, 4 valves, OHC, EFI that would produce well over 80-90 HP. Look at the new BMW R1200R. It produces 125HP at 7,750 RPM. Great engine, lots of torque (92 lb-ft). It passes EU and US DOT environmental requirements. Does BMW have secret technology? Of course not. BMW built their machine to satisfy what they believe is their customer-base.
Triumph thinks, due to customer responses, that a high torque cruiser that looks Britbike retro is what buyers want, and built the motor and bike to that spec. I don’t think Triumph “cheapened out”, or was technically unable to build a liquid cooled machine capable of 100-110 HP, they just don’t believe that prospective buyers want that.
From forum member responses I can see that many don’t mind the lack of HP. That may be a good sign for the eventual success of the model.
I guess not enough disgruntled members of twins on this forum didn't tell Triumph that they wanted a bigger engine with more HP. Triumph will leave that for the tuners if the ECU is not locked out. Torque motors are great for street riding and are fast enough for their intended purpose. Ducati's original Multistrada 1000 has a great street motor which has a two valve head favoring torque over hp. The HP figures for that engine are anemic for a liter twin. But, the engine is sweet on the street. I'm not surprised by the architecture of the new Triumph twin engines. I just don't think HD's history of their engines had anything to do with it. Triumph hasn't chased HP figures for any of their bikes including the Speed Triple. All about usable torque for the street with enough top end rush depending upon the bike model. The Daytona 675 may be an exception. To me, a monster of an engine installed into the twin line just doesn't seem to make sense. No doubt, many would disagree with me.
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